Preamble

The House met at Eleven o'Clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

Orders of the Day — LAW REFORM (PERSONAL INJURIES) BILL [Lords]

Order for Second Reading read.

11.6 a.m.

The Attorney-General (Sir Hartley Shawcross): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
The object of this little Bill is two-fold, partly to introduce a reform, long overdue, into a branch of our law which has been the subject of a great deal of criticism, and partly to regulate the position which will arise when, next July, the National Insurance Scheme comes into operation, when, on the coming into operation of that scheme, persons who sustain injuries may find themselves entitled both to insurance benefit under the national scheme and to compensation or damages from some third party who may have been responsible by his negligence for their injuries.
These were problems which were studied by a Committee under the chairmanship of my distinguished colleague Sir Walter Monckton, and the present Bill, while it does not adopt every recommendation of that Committee—it is, of course, the responsibility of the Government to decide, with the assistance of such advice as they are able to obtain, what proposals they ought to submit to the House in matters of this kind—is very largely based on the valuable inquiry which that Committee conducted and on the Reports which were eventually made.
It has been said that this is a lawyer's Bill, and while it deals with matters which, because of their technical and sometimes rather complicated nature, perhaps loom more largely in the experience and in the minds of lawyers, they are matters which may touch the life of any private citizen who has the misfor-

tune to be injured, or perhaps the misfortune himself to injure someone else, by some negligent or otherwise wrongful act. In explaining the purpose and effect of the Bill, I shall therefore seek, as far as I can, to avoid the irksome technicalities of the law and to use language the simplicity of which will not, I hope, make it less understandable to the subtle minds of some of my legal friends who I see have gathered to make a lawyers' holiday this morning.
In pursuance of that simple programme, I will deal first with Clause 1. This Clause deals with the notorious and ill-favoured doctrine of common employment. It has hitherto been a principle of English law, and, indeed, remains so, except in that branch of it which deals with the relations between master and servant, that a man was responsible in damages not only for his own wrongful or negligent acts which caused damage to third parties, but also for the wrongful or negligent acts of his servants or agents in the course of their employment, and that principle worked well enough in practice until about 110 years ago. It grew up in the course of the steady development of our common law, and no special difficulties arose in connection with it. It is, perhaps, to the credit of Parliament to say that Parliament at no time sought to interfere with the normal application of the doctrine.
In 1837—at a time when, perhaps, the rights, interests and welfare of workmen were not a matter of such great interest as they are now—at any rate in the minds of those who were engineering the industrial revolution—in the course of a legislative function which they had consistently repudiated and at the same time always actively exercised, the courts decided that an employer should not be responsible for injuries to his servants caused, not by his own personal negligence, but by that of a fellow servant. That was the doctrine of common employment; that if an employee were injured by the wrongful act or the fault of another employee in the course of their employment under an employer who was common to both, in those circumstances the injured employee could not recover against the employer.
I understand that, with notable disregard of the doctrine nil nisi bonum, and in distinction to the rule which applies


to living judges, it is permissible to criticise the conduct of judges who are dead. I should get into serious trouble if I were to say that the reasons for this original decision of the courts—in the case of Priestley and Fowler, I think it was called—were, to say the least, obscure. At all events, 20 years later the House of Lords adopted the new doctrine and based it on a theory which has been said to have been imported from the United States of America. This, with singular blindness to the facts of the relationship, held that workmen must be regarded as having impliedly contracted with their employers that they would accept the risks of being injured by the negligence or wrongful act of fellow workmen and would not hold their employers liable, as they would otherwise have been liable under the ordinary law of the land.
That was, of course, a complete fiction. There never was any such implied contract at all and the implication of such an agreement paid no regard to the real realities of the relationship. If I can with propriety make any comment on the matter, I can at least crave in aid what was said by a very distinguished Law Lord, a most liberal-minded and courageous man whose recent resignation we all regret. I refer to Lord Wright, who said:
I cannot help regarding the doctrine as an arbitrary departure from the rules of the common law, based on a prejudiced and one-sided notion of what was called public policy and sanctioned by no previous authority.
That was how the doctrine originated 110 years ago. Its ordinary application would produce the result that, say, in a railway accident for example, where owing to the negligence of a signalman there had been a collision, an injured passenger could recover damages against the company. The engine driver, however, although himself completely innocent of any negligence, and being possibly the victim of very severe injuries, or even being killed in the accident, would be debarred from recovering any damages at all. I say "any damages at all," because it is to be remembered that when this doctrine was introduced into our law there was no possibility, as there is now, of obtaining at least the weekly payment which the Workmen's Compensation Act came later to provide.
As time went on, and more liberal ideas prevailed, the courts came to regard this

doctrine with growing dislike and disfavour. Later, in the effort to circumscribe its operation, they gave decisions which, while perfectly proper and desirable in themselves and tending to produce justice in these matters as far as justice could be produced, did at the same time, when compared with each other, producing the most fantastic results. Thus, if a driver of an omnibus were injured by the negligence of the driver of another omnibus, under the latest decisions it would be possible for him to recover damages against the common employer of both drivers, provided that the accident took place on the road; if it took place in a garage a different result might occur. Moreover, if both drivers were transferred by the same employer to drive tramcars, and if one driver was injured by the negligence of the other in the management of the tramcar, the injured driver was not entitled to recover anything because, apparently, tramcars run on lines and cannot deviate from their course.
By such devices the courts have sought to get round the doctrine, and I think it is true to say that the importance of the doctrine has diminished a great deal in recent years. It has been rare to find it raised as a defence in actions which have been actually fought out in court. But I am assured that the existence of this possible defence has resulted in a very large number of actions, which might otherwise have been brought at common law, never being brought at all, with the consequence that the workman has been compelled to fall back upon his remedy under the Workmen's Compensation Act.
Nor has criticism of this doctrine come from courts alone. From time to time Parliament has done all that it could—except, as we are hoping to do today, abolishing the doctrine—to criticise it. In 1880 the Employers' Liability Act, which is affected by the present Bill, was passed by Parliament to enable actions to be brought against employers in, I think, four classes of cases, with limited damages. In 1893, Mr. Asquith introduced a Measure the intention of which was to abolish the doctrine altogether. I do not wish to make any political point, but the Measure was defeated by manoeuvres which I am quite sure will not be repeated by hon. Members opposite on this occasion. Hon. Members on both sides of the House are now on the side of the


angels. Perhaps it is better still to be an angel. It is a good thing to urge reforms of this kind—as, indeed, everybody has done for the last 50 years or so—but it is better still to be able to bring them about, I am glad to think that it falls to the lot of the present Government to introduce this important reform.
By Clause 1 we shall relieve the courts from the duty of having to decide, as they might otherwise have had to do, what was the position of two drivers of trolleybuses who succeeded in injuring each other in the course of their activities. We are abolishing the doctrine altogether, and also propose to repeal the Employers' Liability Act, 1880, the whole purpose of which was to provide some mitigation or relief from the otherwise harsh operation of the doctrine, and to enable actions to be brought in limited numbers of cases. Once the doctrine goes, the necessity for that Act will completely disappear.
In pursuance of my simple programme, I pass on to Clause 2. It deals with what, in effect, is a completely independent matter, although it is a matter which the Monckton Committee considered in association with the doctrine of common employment. The Committee, unanimously, proposed, as, indeed does Clause 2, to give some relief to employers from the existing liability to pay damages at common law. As the House will know, with the great increase in industrial activity in the last 50 years or so, Parliament has from time to time provided, either directly by Statute or indirectly by statutory regulation made by the Home Secretary or the Minister of Labour, a number of statutory requirements which have been designed to promote and protect the safety of workpeople in industry.
They vary very greatly in their content. Some of them deal with securing adequate ventilation in the mines; some of them with adequate ventilation in tobacco factories. A very common case, which will be present to the minds of all of us, is the regulations which require machinery which is dangerous to be fenced or secured so as to make it safe. Breaches of these regulations or of similar provisions actually contained in the statute have resulted not only in liability to criminal prosecution and fines and other punishment, but also in liability to pay damages to persons who may have been injured by the breach. That liability

reposed on the employer who used the machinery and was guilty of a breach of the statute or regulation, and was one which was regarded as personal to him, which he could not delegate and of which he could not in any way relieve himself.
The existence of that liability and its precise legal implications and results would have been dependent, of course, on the precise terms of the statute or particular statutory regulations which are in point. Under one particular statute or class of statutes it has been a defence for an employer to say that he has done all that it was reasonably practicable to do in order to comply with the regulations. Sometimes, on the other hand—and this is particularly the case in respect of the obligations to fence dangerous machinery under the Factories Acts—it has been an absolute liability to fence such machinery or to comply with the statutory duties whatever they might be, and it has not been an answer for the employer to say, if he were able to say it, that he had done all that he reasonably could to comply with the regulations.
It has been thought—and there are many judicial decisions in which the matter has been canvassed and discussed—that the result of some of the statutory provisions has been to create a liability which was absolute, with the result that if it were not possible to fence particular machinery so as to make it safe, the employer was not entitled to use such machinery at all and he was liable to pay damages to anyone who was injured through the use of such machinery, notwithstanding the fact that he took all possible precautions and could not really have done more, except discard the machinery.
The problem is one which is still open in the House of Lords. I remember that it was raised acutely in the case of an employer's liability in connection with a circular saw, because that is a form of machinery which it is very difficult to make absolutely safe. Where a piece of wood can go it is possible for the hand pushing the piece of good to go also. Until recently—I do not know if the matter is different now—the view of the experts was that it was impossible to provide a fence which made such a machine absolutely safe. The House of Lords had to consider whether, if the most modern devices which were known


at the time protected the circular saw, and an accident occurred, the employer would nonetheless be liable? I was engaged in the case myself just before the war, and the House of Lords kept that point open. We argued that the statutory obligation was no more than to make such a machine as safe as it could be made, and that it did not require an employer to cease the operation of the circular saw if, using it with the most modern devices for safety, it still could not be made absolutely safe.
The House of Lords did not decide that point. They were able to decide the case in my favour on some other ground, but the point was kept open. No doubt, in the future the House of Lords will eventually have to come to a decision on how far this statutory obligation actually goes; how far it is modified by the regulations which may be made under the statute; and how far there is an actual prohibition against the use of machinery which cannot be made absolutely safe, although it has been provided with all the practical safeguards according to modern engineering practice. That is the position as it stands at the moment. The law so far as the decision of the ultimate tribunal is concerned has not been finally settled.
Assuming the duty to be an absolute duty and assuming the employer to be liable to pay damages for injuries resulting from a breach of it, although he has taken all reasonably practical steps to avoid any accident, many people felt that it was unjust to impose on an employer the liability for a breach of statutory duty if he had done, as on that hypothesis he would have done, all that was reasonably practical to avoid the breach. If it was said that he had done all that he could do to avoid the accident, then he was not at fault in any moral sense, and why should he be required to pay damages at all?
The reply made to that was that if an employer wished to use machinery which was dangerous for the purposes of his business and profit and an accident occurred as a result of it, he should be liable as an insurer to pay any damages that resulted. I confess that I always felt this argument was a little specious, and might become increasingly so nowadays with the tendency to nationalise industries, for many important industrial

concerns are no longer run for private profit, but for the benefit of the community. Moreover, the argument could be used with equal validity if an accident occurred in the course of a workman's employment, whether by reason of a breach of statutory duty or by reason of negligence, since it only occurred because the employer chose for his own profit to carry on that particular business in that particular way.
The Government gave careful consideration to this problem, which was one of very great difficulty, and I am bound to tell the House that at first the Government were inclined to accept the recommendations of the Monckton Committee, which was that employers should no longer be, as they are now, under an absolute liability to pay damages, and should be entitled to plead as a defence to any claim made against them that they had done all that it was reasonably practical to do. The fact that the Government were inclined to accept that view is the reason for the appearance of Clause 2 in the Bill.
On the other hand, there is no doubt that the fact that there was this liability to pay damages for breaches of statutory duty has been a very potent factor in promoting the strict observance of the statutory duties that have been laid down, thereby securing increased safety in industrial activities. Designers have been more ingenious in inventing suitable fences, guards, and so on; employers, knowing their own financial interests were closely involved, have been encouraged to be more careful in regard to the use of dangerous machinery and the compliance with statutory duties, and finally—and perhaps this is one of the most important factors—insurance companies have been particularly vigilant, often—indeed, I think, almost universally—by a system of regular and careful periodic inspection to see that all statutory duties were being complied with.
Moreover, if it appeared to us, on reconsidering this difficult problem, unfair to impose a liability to pay damages for breach of statutory duty, it would no doubt be argued that it was even more unfair to impose a criminal responsibility on an employer for breach of statutory duty if he had in fact done all that it was reasonably practicable for him to do to


avoid the breach; and to relieve the employer from the criminal responsibilities which he labours under in regard to these matters and which were renewed by Parliament as recently as 1937, when the last of the Factory Acts were passed, seemed to us to involve a very dangerous relaxation of the existing safety requirements.
After giving full consideration to it and recognising the problem as one which introduced difficult questions, some of them ethical, perhaps, and some of them of a more practical nature, we came to the conclusion that, on the whole, it would be really a very retrograde measure to alter the existing law as to liability for breaches of statutory duty and we propose, therefore—or we shall propose in Committee—in effect to delete Clause 2 of this Bill so as to leave the existing law in regard to breaches of statutory duty, and both the civil and the criminal liability in regard to them, exactly as it is today, and also so as to leave the House of Lords free to decide, when the matter finally comes before them, the exact nature and extent to which statutory duties and statutory regulations impose an absolute obligation.
Indeed, we feel that to do otherwise would really involve taking away from injured workmen with one hand, the existing right which they have always enjoyed and which sometimes might be worth more to them than the right, which we are extending with our other hand, to proceed without the risk of being defeated by the doctrine of common employer. I hope the House will think that on balance—and this is obviously a difficult matter on which more than one view may be held—that it is better not to interfere with the existing law which has operated, I think, in practice with no great injustice to anybody and which, on the other hand, has resulted in damages being paid in cases where manifestly they ought to be recovered.
I have dealt with the matter in relation to workmen, but I am reminded by my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General that this right of action is not limited to workmen. There may be other statutory duties, either by statute or regulation, by which private individuals are entitled to benefit and regulations which, if broken, will give rise to a right of action on the part of private citizens who are injured. It is a problem which

looms more largely in the case of statutory duties imposed on employers for the benefit of their workmen, but there have been a number of statutes and a number of statutory regulations which do create general duties for the benefit of citizens at large, some of which may result in the injured citizen being entitled to damages if his, injuries are a result of a breach of that regulation. We feel it right to leave this practically as it is at present and not to introduce any modifications as a result of this Bill.
I come now to Clause 3, which deals with a completely different and in some ways more complex-problem—the problem of alternative remedies. Under the existing law a workman injured in the course of his employment may have a good action for damages in a lump sum at common law on the ground that his injuries are the result of the personal negligence of his employers or, when Clause 1 comes into effect, the result of the negligence of someone for whom his employer is responsible, or are the consequences of a breach of statutory duties; and, in addition to that right to sue for damages at common law, he may also have the right under the Workman's Compensation Act to claim a weekly workman's compensation payment, and to claim it independently altogether from the question whether his accident was caused by any wrongful act or default on the part of his employer or his employer's servants or agents.
These remedies in the law hitherto have been alternative remedies; they have not been cumulative. If a workman accepted workman's compensation he could not afterwards come along and claim damages. If, on the other hand, he obtained damages in common law—a lump sum, once and for all—he could not later come along and say that he must have weekly payments under the Workman's Compensation Act, even though it turned out that his injuries were of a much more permanent nature than was thought at the time he went to the court and obtained damages. I dare say that was normally a completely equitable position. Both the 'damages and the weekly payments under the Workman's Compensation Act came from the same employer. The employee was put to his election. He had to choose which of those remedies he would take, and the


employer was protected from the liability of having to pay twice in both forms of remedy.
That has been the position up to now, but in future it will be entirely changed. The workman's compensation system as we have known it hitherto is coming to an end, and in its place will be provided the National Insurance benefits provided as a result of a scheme to which the employees and the State contribute, as well as the employer. In the past, as the House appreciates, the whole liability has been on the employer alone. The State has made no contribution and, except in so far as it may have affected wage levels, the employee has made no contribution. In future, the industrial benefit will be one to which the employee, the employer and the State will contribute, I think in the proportion of five-twelfths by the employee, five-twelfths by the employer and two-twelfths by the State.
The question which arises from that alteration in the whole system of industrial compensation is whether persons who are injured in circumstances which may entitle them to sue either their employer or, perhaps, a third party for damages at common law should also have the full right to recover the whole of their National Insurance benefit at the same time; or should they, on the other hand, be required, as workmen were previously required, to elect between the one benefit and the other, the one remedy and the other, the National Insurance benefit or the claim at common law; or should they—and this is the third case—have some part of their National Insurance benefit set off, as it were, against the amount to which they may be entitled in their action at common law?
I said this was a problem which will arise in future as it has not arisen in the past, in connection not only with claims against an employer, but with claims against a third party as well. As hon. Members will appreciate, a man may be injured in the course of his employment by the negligence of some third party. In the course of his employment he may be travelling about the streets on his employer's business and be run down by the negligence of some third party driving a motor car. Under the existing law, in such a case he would, it is true, have remedies against the third party and

against the employer under the different branches of the law, one at common law, the other under the Workmen's Compensation Act. That situation will still continue to arise, but with this difference: that now the insured person will receive a benefit under the National Insurance scheme to which that third party, the negligent motorist, as a taxpayer will also have made some contribution. The question, therefore, poses itself in the way I have put it. Is the person injured in such circumstances to have the full benefit both of payment upon National Insurance Scheme and of such rights as he may possess at common law either against the employer or the third party whose negligence has caused his injuries?
This poses a difficult problem, and it is obviously one about which more than one view may be held. On the one hand, it may be said that the basis of damages as awarded at common law is compensation for the actual loss which has been sustained, and if the insured person gets that compensation in an action at common law against his employer, or against some third party, he ought not to get, in addition, the insurance benefits under the industrial scheme, because if he does he will, in fact, be better off than he was before.
Let us take an example. If because of an accident a person—it need not be a workman in the sense I have been discussing the position of workmen hitherto—sustains an injury which results in his losing a salary of £5 a week for, say, a period of 10 weeks, he would be entitled, under the law as it stands, to recover for that particular part of his injury £50 in an action for damages at common law, quite apart from any additional sum he may receive for the pain of suffering, and so on. Should he, in addition to that £50, get £2 a week—or whatever it may be under the industrial insurance scheme—and thus be a week better off, so far as his weekly income is concerned, than he would have been but for the accident? Or, on the other hand—this is the alternative view—in assessing the damages which he ought to be paid at common law in his common law action, ought that £2 he is to receive to be taken into account, deducted from the £5, and the award made to be limited to £3 a week? That is the sort of problem as it will pose itself in future.
That is one view—that the injured person ought not to get the benefit in full—at all events, the full common law damages and the National Insurance payment.
The opposite view to that, held strongly by many people, is that insurance benefit is something to which an insured man is entitled in his own right, so to speak, apart altogether from any claim which he may have, whether it be against his employer or against the third party. These insurance benefits, it may be said, are the result of his own contributions to an insurance scheme, and ought not to relieve a negligent employer or a negligent third party from the liability which would otherwise fall upon him. That argument, as it seems to us, would be a very strong argument indeed if the insurance benefit were solely the result of contributions made on the voluntary thrift and initiative of the injured person himself.
Hitherto, it has certainly been no answer for the negligent driver of the motor car to say to somebody he has run down and injured, "I am not going to pay you any damages for this. You have been prudent enough and careful enough in the past to put down monthly or yearly premiums to insure yourself against the very risk that I might some day accidentally run you down and cause you injuries." That kind of defence has not been open to a third party, and he has had to pay damages in full, disregarding altogether any additional payment that the injured man may have received under a voluntary and privately negotiated insurance contract to which he alone had subscribed.
However, the position in future is, of course, going to be an entirely different position. When insurance benefits are the result of contributions, partly, it is true, from the insured person, but partly also from his employer, and partly from the State, it may be right for the law to step in and say, "You have been covered in respect of some part of the loss which you have sustained in this accident by an insurance scheme to which your employer and the State have contributed, and you ought not, therefore, to recover the whole of the damages to which you would have been previously entitled at common law and the whole of this insurance benefit in addition." Why, it will be asked, should an injured person get all the benefit

of an insurance scheme to which he is only one of several contributors? Why should the employer, if the action is brought against the employer, or the third party, if the action is brought against the third party, pay twice over, not only under the contributions he has made as an employer or taxpayer to the National Insurance scheme, but also in damages which may be awarded against him by the court?
In considering this problem, the majority of the Monckton Committee came to the conclusion, for the reasons which are indicated in their Report—I am not going to canvass them before the House now—that once insured, a person is always to be entitled to receive full National Insurance benefit. If he also brings an action for damages against his employer or against a negligent third party, the amount of the insurance benefit that he is receiving, or entitled to receive, should be taken into account, and should be deducted from the total of damages awarded in his favour.
We have given this problem very careful consideration, and we have come to a somewhat different conclusion from that reached by the Monckton Committee. This is certainly a compromise solution to some extent. We think that in so far as the compensation ordered by the court, the damages awarded by the court, is compensation for loss of earnings or loss of profits, in so far as that is one of the elements in the total sum which is awarded by the court as damages in the action at common law, that the court should take into account against that particular item of the damages one half of the insurance benefits that will be received, or have been received, by the injured person in a period of five years from the date of his accident.
I want to explain that a little more fully in a word or two. That does not mean, of course, that courts will be required to enter into any complicated calculation, any unduly nice adjustment, of the amount of damages which they award under particular itemised heads. Damages are awarded by courts in one lump sum. People are given £1,000, £1,500 or £5,000, or whatever it may be, and the courts do not, in awarding that sum, allocate it to specific items. They do not say, so much is for pain and suffering, so much is for loss of earnings,


so much is for special expenses which have been incurred. They take these matters into account in a broad way in coming to a conclusion as to what is a fair amount, and then they give a lump sum without breaking it down into specific items. What the provision in this Bill will require courts to do in future is that in arriving at the total sum which they think it right to award, and in taking into account, as one of the elements in that total, the loss of earnings, the loss of profits, which may have formed part of the damage which has been sustained by the injured person, they should set off against that item, that element, that loss of earnings, that loss of profits, one half of the insurance benefit. Courts will, of course, continue to have regard to many different items. They will have regard to the pain and suffering that the injured man has sustained and, as to that, insurance benefits will have nothing to do with the matter at all. They will continue to have regard to special items of damages, as they are called—medical expenses, if those have been incurred, There will be no obligation to incur them after the National Health Scheme comes into operation but if, none the less, they are incurred, those will rank, and benefits under the scheme will not be taken into account at all. Other items of special damage are damage to clothing, and damage to a motor car.
Matters of that kind will be entirely unaffected but, when they are dealing, as they have to do, in a broad and general way with the question, how much has this man lost in earnings, how much has he lost in profits because he has been away from work or business, then they will say, "But he has been receiving so much a week. We must allow for 50 per cent. of that, and deduct it from the amount which we would otherwise award." In that way, without entering into too nice a mathematical calculation, without doing the thing in too formal a way, the courts will be entitled under the Clause to pay some regard to the fact that, as a result of contributions only partly made by the injured person and partly made by the State or by his employer, insurance benefits will be paid in respect of the injuries for which damages are being claimed.
There is probably no solution of this problem which produces an absolutely just or equitable result, no solution which will not be open to some criticism of some kind. I realise that there is great force in the view of the majority of the Committee; I appreciate that in some respects—for instance, in the limitation I have already mentioned to the House, that these benefits will only be set off for a period of up to five years from the date of the accident—we are adopting what is perhaps an arbitrary and compromise solution. It may be subjected to all the criticisms which can be directed against compromise solutions, but, on the other hand, compromise solutions, when they do not involve any sacrifice of principle, also have very great benefits, and we think, on the whole, that this is the 'best solution to recommend to the House in regard to this problem.
This is a modest little Measure. It solves a practical problem which the introduction of the National Insurance Scheme has created, and it removes one of the defects which have marred our existing system of law. In existing circumstances, with the grave economic, social and international problems that would face and preoccupy any Government, it has not been possible to bring about all the large measures of law reform which my noble Friend, my hon. and learned Friend, and myself would like to see some day passed into law by Parliament. None the less, in the existing Parliament, in various Measures such as the Crown Proceedings Act, the Companies Act, the reform in regard to divorce procedure, the Rent Restrictions Act, we have been able to make notable advances in the field of law reform, and this Bill, small and modest though it is, does have some place in that general but essentially and necessarily gradual programme.

11.57 a.m.

Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: I am sure the House is grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman for the clear exposition he has given of a technical Bill, and my hon. Friends and myself have no intention of opposing the Bill or dividing the House against it. The only reason why I shall detain the House at all is that it is interesting occasionally, when one attends the obsequies of a portion of our law, to consider, as the right hon. and learned


Gentleman has done, briefly its origin and also—and this seems to me of importance—to see how the courts who introduced it then tried of their own motion to improve it as far as they could; because I think this is an example of how our courts endeavoured, being confronted with this doctrine, to shape it to the changing economic and social conditions of the day.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: They were not confronted with it; they invented it.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: If the hon. Gentleman will slow the acceleration of that speedily moving headpiece of his, he will realise that although the courts in 1837 may have invented it, when one comes to 1900 the courts at that time were confronted with it, so there are, as in so many spheres of disputation, two points of view, and shortly I am sure the hon. Gentleman will perceive a view other than his own.
However, I was just about to say, with regard to the origin, that the legal phrase usually mentioned is that Lord Abinger planted the doctrine of common employment, Baron Alderson watered it, and the Devil gave it increase. I should like to join the right hon. and learned Gentleman in his patriotic effort to cast for the rôle of the Devil, Chief Justice Shaw of Massachusetts, who invented, as far as my researches go, the basis of this doctrine of the implied term in the contract of employment. As the Attorney-General said, that was the position which obtained from 1800 onwards, and it was accepted. All I want to point out is the three definite lines of improvement at which the courts of this country arrived. In the first place, they narrowed down the conception of common employment to common work and work which was mutually interdependent. In the second place, they declared it was wrong that the employer should escape by delegating his responsibility and made him responsible for any delegation in the matter. In the third place, with the assistance of Parliament, they brought into a state of flourishing activity actions for breach of statutory duties. After some difficulties, which the Attorney-General and I remember so well 20 years ago, these improvements became the most useful adjuncts to industry and industrial accidents. I have always con-

sidered that there was something in the distinction between accidents for which managements were responsible and accidents for which workers were responsible—in other words accidents resulting from one worker doing a job with another. I always thought that that distinction could be drawn, and I have stated that point of view.
I think, however, that there is great force in what the Attorney-General has said today—that, in this process of amelioration in the courts, we have now come to a position where anomalies are bound to exist, and in these circumstances I have come to the point of view—and I recommend my hon. Friends to agree ending and burying of the doctrine. In fairness to Lord Abinger, it ought to be said, on this, the last occasion when we shall be discussing this matter—and this is one of the mysteries which ought to be placed on record—that I find nothing objectionable in his original opinion. I have looked up what he said, and these are his words:
The mere relationship of master and servant never could imply any obligation on the part of the master to take more care of the servant than of himself.
That does not seem extremely unreasonable.
He is bound to provide for the safety of his servants in the course of his employment to the best of his judgment, information and belief.
That is the start of the doctrine, and I thought it only fair to the memory of Lord Abinger, after 110 years, to place on record the very limited manner in which he made the suggestion.
The second broad point dealt with by the Attorney-General was the fact that he proposed in effect to delete Clause 2 of the Bill during Committee stage. There is a point here which needs very serious consideration. I should like to reserve my own position, having just heard the argument, as to the best method of dealing with this. I should like to make one suggestion to the Attorney-General, which I think he has already in mind. Even if he takes the course he has suggested, if he will look at Section 60 (3) of the Factory Act, which co-ordinates the duties imposed by the various Sections of the Act and to the duties imposed by regulations made under the dangerous trade Sections, he will find there is power—and this view has the sanction of the


Court of Appeal—to amend and alter the duties fixed by the Sections of the Act.
If it is made clear that it is possible, by regulations which are, I think, still made by the Home Office, to achieve the best possible machine, then this problem does not really arise. In other words, the problem is considered by the Government, through the machinery of the Home Office, and the standard we wish to apply is fixed objectively and fairly in relation to those who are engaged in industry. That would be a great help, and it would cover most of the problem. As we know, it is largely a Factory Act problem. As the spokesman for the Government said in another place, a provision similar to this is already in operation under the Coal Mines Act. Therefore, I put the suggestion forward for consideration by the Government. I think it would secure the high standard of safety we all desire.
With regard to the third broad point in the Bill, namely, of how far benefit is to be taken into account or disregarded in the exercise of an alternative remedy, I am not disposed to quarrel with the compromise at which the Government have arrived. I have had to consider in the past, and will have to consider again, in connection with this Bill, the two views which found expression in the Monckton Committee. First, that the damages are compensation, putting it broadly; and, second, that insurance payments should not be taken into account. It seems to me fair that when there is an insurance payment which is the result of three payments—five-twelfths by the man, five-twelfths by the employer and two-twelfths by the State—a fraction is the proper solution of the problem of what should be taken into account. It seems that of those constituent amounts I have mentioned a half is a reasonable compromise, and, therefore should be supported. As the Attorney-General said, this is a technical Bill, the provisions of which may provide difficulty for the layman. What I hope, and join with the right hon. and learned Gentleman in believing, is that the result of the Bill, despite its technicalities, will be to improve the position of a large number of workers in industry. For that reason, I am prepared to advise my right hon. and hon. Friends to give it a Second Reading today.

12.11 p.m.

Mr. Seholefield Allen: It is a great privilege to be able today to attend the death ceremony of the doctrine of common employment. This doctrine, the origin of which we have heard, has met with the disapproval, I think I am right in saying, of all progressive lawyers for many years. The fact that it still remains part of our law is, in my view, due entirely to the obstruction to its abolition, year after year, by Members of the party opposite. Clause 1 was a hardy annual; it was introduced by Members of the Labour Party in 1935, 1936, 1937 and 1938. It was supported in a very eloquent speech, in 1938, by my right hon. Friend who is now Minister of National Insurance, and opposed by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) in a long speech which was full of alleged reasons why this doctrine should not then be abolished.
This morning the right hon. and learned Gentleman comes to the House contrite, and in a white shroud, and says, on behalf of his party, that they are not opposing the abolition of this doctrine today. I think there are about 390 reasons in this House why they are not opposing it, but when the majority was with the other side they invariably opposed the abolition of the doctrine. The Webbs had something to say about this doctrine many years ago, in their famous book on "The History of Trade Unions." The Labour Party has consistently opposed this doctrine, and we welcome this opportunity of getting rid of it, while at the same time welcoming the conversion of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby to its abolition. I notice that the hon. and gallant Member for Barkston Ash (Colonel Ropner) is not here today. As I read through the various Debates which have taken place on this subject I discovered that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was one of the chief opponents of the beheading of this doctrine. The reason given in those days was that it would cost employers and trade and industry too much to put an end to the doctrine. In 1937, the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby actually said that Parliament had enacted it and re-enacted it


when it passed the Workmen's Compensation Act. I will remind the House of what he said:
Parliament has recognised this doctrine four times, and has three times expressly reenacted it. It was recognised in the Act of 1880, and was re-enacted in the Compensation Acts of 1897, 1906 and 1923."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 26th February, 1937; Vol. 320, c. 2367.]
I see nothing in any of these Acts which "re-enacts" the doctrine of common employment. It has the sanction only of the common law and we are here today, as I said, to bury it, because it is time it was buried. Many claims which could have been made in the past have been frustrated by this doctrine, and many workmen and their wives and dependents have had to put up with small sums by way of compensation under the Workmen's Compensation Act because they were unable by reason of the defence of common employment to go to the High Court and claim damages at common law which, in each case, would have been much greater. I and most progressive lawyers will be exceedingly pleased to know that this is the death ceremony of this doctrine.
I was glad when I saw the Bill that Clause 1 was doing what I have just said, but when I came to Clause 2 I was troubled by the fact that the Government should seek not to increase the rights of the workers in actions at common law, but to whittle them away. I thought Clause 2 a retrograde step, and I am proud to be a supporter of a Government which, when they see they have made a mistake, have had the courage to retreat. This is far from the position which obtained when the Bill was given its Second Reading in another place, when everybody seemed to join a patting party and entirely approved of the Clause. I am sure, however, that it met with the disapproval of most trade union organisations, and I am glad that the Government have had second thoughts and intend to remove it from the Bill.
I would that I could say the same of Clause 3. I wish the Government would have second thoughts about this Clause as well. There is something to be said for the argument that as an employer makes a contribution under the various schemes so the employer should get some benefit, but that only applies where the litigant brings

his action against his employer for an accident in the course of his employment or work. But the stranger, someone who has made no contribution whatever, will get a similar benefit under this Bill. If I am knocked down in the road by a motorist, and I bring an action against him, and get some benefit under the Act, this Clause will have the effect of depriving me of a certain amount of compensation. Why? The motorist has made no contribution. It may be some argument to say that in the case of a workman the employer has made a contribution, but there is no argument whatever where the defaulter is a complete stranger, and not a contributor to my particular scheme. So I see no reason why the Government should not also give way on this matter. Although it was a recommendation of the Monckton Committee on Alternative Remedies that something of this kind should be introduced, there were reservations, in Annex A, by the trade union representatives, who said:
In our opinion the comparison has nothing to do with the principle which is involved. If the person is insured against certain hazards he is clearly entitled to receive the benefit of such insurance, irrespective of the source which provides them, and we do not feel that the argument used against this view is justified, indeed, to some extent this opinion is shared by our colleagues, who recommend that National Insurance benefits shall be paid and shall not be recoverable by the Minister out of any damages which may be awarded…The claimant who is contributing for certain benefits provided under the National Insurance scheme is, in the circumstances, but very little different from those who seek to protect themselves by private insurance.
There is no right to deduction from any claim for damages that a plaintiff may have received under a private policy of insurance to which he has contributed. I see no reason why this provision should be introduced at this stage. Further, in actions for damages under the Fatal Accidents Act it is specifically provided that widows' pensions shall not be deducted. What we plead for today has received the approval of this House in times past.

The Attorney-General: We do not propose that this provision shall apply to claims under the Fatal Accidents Act.

Mr. Seholefield Allen: I was illustrating the principle of the thing. In principle, in the past, when there has been a benefit under statute to which a person has made


contributions as, for example, a widow's pension, Parliament has said that no deduction should be made from damages in respect of such benefit. The Bill is an exception to that principle, and says that when contributors are benefiting under various insurance schemes, half of that benefit shall be taken into account.
I see too that it is to be left that damages at large are not to be allocated in specific items. We all of us in the courts understand that that is a great benefit. When we tell a judge or jury that they have to find out some hypothetical five-year figure and make some hypothetical deduction from same hypothetical sum, and the jury gives the answer or the judge gives the answer, there is no way of ascertaining whether this provision has been properly taken into account or not, or whether it has been correctly taken into account or not. There is no way of ascertaining whether the principle set out under this Clause has been followed. There is no way of checking whether five years has been allowed, or two years, or one year. I ask the Government to think again about this matter and to let us have a thoroughly good Measure, with common employment abolished and Clause 2 withdrawn, and Clause 3 also withdrawn. I apprehend that the Government are convertible, and I am sure that a great number of my hon. Friends on this side of the House would be pleased to hear that the Government had been converted to the views which I have expressed.

12.23 p.m.

Mr. Basil Nield: The atmosphere of amity and concord which obtained before the hon. and learned Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen) rose to address the House, I hope to restore. He was at pains to suggest that, from this side of the House, we have done very little to welcome the abolition of the defence of the doctrine of common law. He did not, however, quote from a speech which I myself made in this House in connection with the Crown Proceedings Bill, in which I specifically asked that legislation might be introduced at a later date. The right hon. Gentleman, on that occasion, promised such legislation—and here it is. The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) has described this as a technical Bill, and so it is. The

Attorney-General has described it as a modest little Bill and it has become somewhat smaller since Clause 2 is, apparently, not to be proceeded with.
The Bill, I suggest, embraces matters of great importance, for this reason: its proposals concern actions relating to the law of damages for personal injury. It is, of course, actions in that form which make up the greater part of the day-to-day business of the civil courts. When we are considering amendments or alterations to it, they require very careful consideration. Upon Clause 1 I want to reiterate what has already been said. For my part, I greet with satisfaction the abolition of the doctrine of common employment. The history of it has been covered, and, in particular, it has been pointed out that the doctrine was based upon the theory that when a man entered into a contract of service, he was to be taken to undertake the risk of the negligence of his fellow servants; and so it was a somewhat artificial theory on which this doctrine really depended. For a long time it has been recognised that the retention of the doctrine may involve, and did involve, certain injustices and inequity. Among the quotations which I have examined from the speeches made in another place, sitting as the last appellate tribunal, is one to which I would like to refer. That is the speech which Lord Atkin made in a well known case on this subject in 1939, when he said:
At the present time this doctrine is looked at askance by judges and text book writers. 'There are none to praise and very few to love.' But it is too well established to be overthrown by judicial decision.
That was, I think, in effect, an invitation that legislation might be introduced to do that which the courts by reason of long usage were not in a position to do.
Clause 2 of the Measure defines certain substantial proposals for the alteration of the law. I should like to know on what date it was that the Government changed their mind on this matter and decided not to proceed with the Clause. The Bill was ordered to be printed on 18th December last, and certainly I had no idea that this change was to be brought about. While I, like my right hon. and learned Friend, reserve to another time and after hearing the arguments, what I have to say on this Clause, I would say now that it is my view, after a good many years of experience


of these matters, that the law sometimes does operate harshly upon occupiers of factories who are subject to the statutory requirements of the Factory Acts and regulations. It is often not open to them to show, as this Clause rather proposes, that they have taken all reasonable steps to make their particular machines safe and that therefore they are not liable. If there was to have been an alteration in civil liability, it would have followed, I suggest, that there should have been some amendment in relation to the criminal responsibility of the occupiers of factories. We know that even when the occupier of a factory has had a machine which has been operated without accident for some time, and which may have been inspected by a Home Office inspector, and then an accident happens, there is almost always a heavy fine without any opportunity of his saying "I have done my very best in the circumstances." Thus, if it had been proposed to amend the law as to civil liability, it would have been necessary to amend the criminal law in this matter as well.
Finally, a word on the proposal to introduce new arrangements for the assessment of damages. On this point I ask for some enlightenment from the Solicitor-General, who is to reply. I think it is right to say that a court which is charged with the task of assessing damages for personal injuries divides that assessment broadly into two parts: special damage—that is to say, loss of earnings, out-of-pocket expenses and so forth; and general damage—that is to say, pain and suffering and future disability. In this Bill we are directing our minds to the question of special damage and loss of earnings, and the suggestion is that half the benefits under the various schemes shall be deducted from the amount of the earnings. I would like to put k hypothetical case and ask a question about it.
Let us assume that the injured man earns £5 a week, and that after his accident he will be entitled to benefits of one sort or another of, say, £2 a week. When the court assesses his loss of earnings, as I understand the arithmetic, it will be £5 earnings, £2 benefit; halve the benefit, which gives £1; deduct that froth £5, and assess the loss of earnings at £4 a week. Thereafter, that injured person will be receiving £4 loss of earnings and£2 benefit, amounting to £6. He is, therefore, £1 better off than he was

before the accident. The question I ask—and I think it is important—is whether it is anticipated that the court will assess general damages by taking into account the extra£1, as it were, in diminution of general damages? I should have thought not, but I submit that one of the most difficult tasks which a judge has is to assess damages, and we ought to assist the courts by making that point clear, perhaps, as well as others, during the course of our discussions on this Bill.

12.33 p.m.

Mr. Berry: Most of the remarks that I have heard in this Debate have been directed to Clause 2. I am not approaching this matter as others have done, from the legal point of view, but from another aspect. Some years ago I used to have a fair amount of practice—practice which I deplored having to do—in giving expert evidence in the courts, and in the course of doing so I came under the cross-examination—always acute and always fair—of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke Newington (Mr. Weitzman). I wish all the cross-examination which I have undergone in my lifetime had been as fair as his.
I congratulate the Attorney-General on the withdrawal of Clause 2, although if he follows the suggestion that Clause 3 should also be withdrawn, goodness knows what would be left of the Bill except the very valuable provision contained in Clause 1. I cannot think that the Bill would be introduced purely for the sake of Clause 1—

Mr. S. Silverman: Why not?

Mr. Berry: If my hon. Friend will allow me to finish the sentence, I was going to say, "by itself." Like other hon. Members and many people outside the House, I know that a lot of hardships have been inflicted through the operation of the doctrine of common employment. True, there have been different interpretations of that doctrine, and it has depended very much on the views taken by learned counsel and learned judges of that doctrine. With reference to the views that have been taken by learned counsel, may I say that I do not agree with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen) who referred to a shroud for the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe). We trust it will be


many years before the right hon. and learned Gentleman is obliged to have a shroud. As to whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman ought to wear a white sheet, I leave him to discuss that with his legal brother, the hon. and learned Member for Crewe.
As to Clause 3, I can see a likelihood of a fair amount of legal discussion arising when it comes up in the courts. This is a lawyers' Bill, and it is technical, although we can congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General on the absolute simplicity with which he introduced this Measure. He made a legal matter very clear to laymen. Would that all legal gentlemen shared that simplicity. Small as this Bill is, its introduction marks an historic occasion, for, quite apart from the legal aspects, human considerations are brought into the Bill. Reference has been made to the propriety of a man getting more money when he is injured than he gets when he is at work. We all know that when a man is laid up, the home expenses frequently increase considerably, and while I recognise that some of those expenses will be decreased because of the Government's social services policy, nevertheless, in the domestic sphere these expenses are bound to increase. I welcome this Bill because it recognises the human side of the problem as well as the legal side.
I welcome Clause 5, which binds the Crown to the provisions of the Bill, because there have been anomalies in the past. While there may be arguments on Clause 3, and although there are times when I view with suspicion some of the legal wrangles in this House—bearing in mind, whether it is correct or not, that old gibe that our laws are drafted by lawyers for the benefit of lawyers—I welcome the Bill because I belive it will contribute to the sum total of human happiness.

12.38 p.m.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: I do not accept the view that this is a lawyers' Bill, or a technical Bill, designed to clear up some outmoded' and outdated technicality or abnormality. I do not think the Bill should be seen against that background or in that context. My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General was much nearer the

truth when he put the Bill against the background of general social reform to which this Government have been committed. I noticed, however, that in his recital of the list of social reforms which the Government were putting through, he modestly omitted to mention the suspension of the death penalty.
This doctrine of common employment should be regarded not from the point of view of its tortuous logic, but of the infinite damage which it has done to human life in 120 years. The misery that it has caused—the tragedy in small working class families, the destitution, the intense feeling of social injustice and, may I say it?, capitalist tyranny—has never been measured, but it must be very large indeed. I would have welcomed the Bill very much more if it had consisted of Clause 1 alone. I see no reason why anyone should regard the matter as of so limited an importance as not to justify a separate Measure in order to remove this evil.
Many of us in the last few years have sought to get the evil remedied by just such a one-Clause Measure. We have nearly always been supported in so doing not by all the lawyers, but by nearly all, irrespective of party. I intervened in the speech made by the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) to say that the courts were not "confronted" with the doctrine of common employment but that they had themselves invented it. Although I think that that is substantially true, I quite agreed with the retort I received that this is by no means the whole of the story. It is true that, in the end, however it may have originated, this doctrine of common employment for many years received the sanction of the House of Commons and of Parliament, and not merely by implication.
It is true that Parliament also did it by implication, but neither the Employer's Liability Act of 1880, nor any of the Workmen's Compensation Acts, would have been necessary at all except on the basis that common employment was the law of the land, ought to be the law of the land and would remain the law of the land. Unless I am mistaken, every one of those Acts contains an express provision that no action for damages shall be brought against an employer except for his personal and direct


negligence. That means that he was not, in the case of his servant liable under the doctrine of vicarious responsibility under which he was responsible to anybody else.
Why was it? Only because of the doctrine of common employment. The right hon. and learned Member for West Derby was right in his speech in 1938, when he said that Parliament had four times at least re-enacted the doctrine of common employment. It may have been originally a figment of the judicial imagination, but it did not remain that. In the end it was passed repeatedly by House of Commons after House of Commons, in which those of us who are in a majority were in a minority. In other words, it ceased to be a legal doctrine, and became a social and economic doctrine imposed by those who mainly represented employers against the constant protests of those who mainly represented workers. It is only today, with a Labour Government and a large Labour majority, that we get rid of this evil thing, without the opposition of anyone.
I wish the Bill had stopped there. It contains Clause 2. It was for the sake of Clause 2 that I put down the Motion for rejection which stands in my name on the Order Paper. It seems to me that the Bill is drawn to take away with one hand, more than it offers by way of benefits with the other. To take away by Clause 1 the disability under which a workman suffers, and to impose upon him a new disability by Clause 2, would be to leave the workman worse off and not better off because of the Bill. I would have preferred no Bill at all rather than the Bill with Clause 2 in it. I am sure the workers would have been better off without the Bill, in those circumstances.
My right hon. and learned Friend has made a clear, lucid and nicely balanced statement of the various reasons for and against Clause 2. His argument was too ridiculous. I see no merit in Clause 2. I cannot imagine how anybody ever thought there was merit in it. What was the situation? It was assumed that the State had imposed upon the employer an obligation which he could not reasonably perform. Clause 2 is directed to cases of that kind. If the regulation imposes an obligation which cannot be reasonably performed, the regulation

ought to be withdrawn. That is the way to deal with it. If the regulation remains so as to compel people to perform an obligation which they cannot perform, we have what position?
Take the case of the circular saw to which the Attorney-General referred. It would be impossible for the House of Commons at this stage to legislate for the abolition of circular saws. Everybody concedes that argument. It might not be very easy and in some cases it might be almost impossible to make circular saws in operation equally safe for everyone. In those circumstances, what does Clause 2 propose to do in the name of justice and equity? It proposes to say "Let the circular saw continue to drive and let it continue to be unsafe. If an unfortunate workman loses a finger or an arm or a leg, deprive him of his damages because the employer could not protect the circular saw."
How in the world can that be reasonable? How can anybody ever have thought that it was reasonable? If the employer is to be allowed to continue to work, for his own benefit and profit and for the development of his trade, an instrument which he ought to protect, is bound by statute to protect but cannot protect, then he must do it at his own risk and not at the risk of his workmen. How can anyone ever have held an opposite view to that, and could have thought there was justice or equity in the opposite view, more particularly as the criminal law on the subject is not available? We should be in a really stupid position, but for the opportunity to withdraw the Clause in Committee. The employer would be liable criminally in the criminal courts for a breach of regulations which he could not have obeyed anyhow, whereas he would be exempt from having to indemnify the workman who has suffered by the danger. If we are to make any discrimination at all the sensible thing to do is to say: "It shall be a defence in the criminal courts to a criminal charge if you feel that you reasonably could not have done otherwise. If you could not reasonably do otherwise and if in fact your servants or workmen suffered, there is no reason why you should not insure against that damage."
Why is everybody so mealy-mouthed about insurance in this connection? We


all know why we keep insurance out of the discussion in the courts. It is because we may give juries inflated ideas of damages if they feel that the money will not be found by an individual employer but by some powerful and wealthy corporation like an insurance company. I agree with the time-honoured practice that when we are dealing with these cases in the courts the question of insurance is irrelevant and we leave it out. It is not irrelevant here. What injustice is there to the employer to say that in order to cover the risks of his trade he should pay what little is necessary to an insurance company? It amazes me that anybody in this Government should have thought that Clause 2 was right or proper. I rejoice to see that it has gone.
I think that Clause 3 is retrograde, too. I do not take anything like so strong a view of it as I took of Clause 2, but why is it necessary to interfere at all? Why is Clause 3 necessary? There is an arrangement whereby the State provides a general, all-inclusive insurance system to cover the workers against the accidents of life. Everybody pays into an insurance fund in order that those accidents shall not leave these people destitute but that some agreed minimum standard of existence shall be given them.
In this Bill we are not dealing with accidents. We are dealing with people who are injured and maimed, perhaps for life, and perhaps killed by reason of some direct wrong done to them which ought not to, have been done and which need not have been done. The man's action for damages depends on his ability to prove that his damage arose not by accident but by neglect. Why in the world is it necessary to mix these things at all? What the man gets out of his contributory scheme is one thing and what he is entitled to get by way of damages because somebody has wronged him is quite another thing. Why mix it up? It is not proposed to mix it up in some other cases. The principle is still accepted with widows' pensions, and if we do not take into account the widow's pension, why take into account the sickness benefit? The principle is retained in this Bill in that one limited instance of widows' pensions in cases arising under the Fatal Accidents Act, and I do not see why the principle should not be applied all round.
Even if it is thought that there is some ground for making some reduction in the case of the Industrial Injuries Act, why do it with sickness benefit? Every argument advanced for Clause 3 could have been advanced since 1911 in regard to payments under the National Health Insurance Act, but they never were. The courts were expressly instructed not to take those benefits into account. We are taking a step backwards in instructing the courts to take into account sickness benefit.
Under Section 83 of the Industrial Injuries Act, there is provision for supplementary schemes. The Act provides for a general scheme for all workers, with contributions by workmen, contributions by employers and contributions by the State, and standard national benefits, but any industry is allowed to work out for itself a supplementary scheme whereby supplementary benefits can be paid. The miners, if they have not already adopted such a scheme, are on the point of doing so. Therefore, by means of extra contributions by employers and workmen, the standard of benefit, if industrial injury occurs, is higher than the normal national minimum. Is it intended that Clause 3 shall apply to those supplementary benefits as well? That would be an absolutely monstrous position. Those supplementary benefits are purely private arrangements, voluntarily undertaken in the industries themselves, and half their benefit would be destroyed if they were to be subject to Clause 3. I hope we can get some answer about this. It must have been considered, and I do not know whether any conclusion has been reached about it, but I would like an assurance before we reach the Committee stage—or I would like some Amendment made during the Committee stage to safeguard the matter—that these supplementary benefits shall not be taxed and charged under Clause 3.

The Attorney-General: I do not think Clause 3 applies to those benefits. All that Clause 3 deals with is the actual benefit under the National Insurance Act. I thought I had made that clear.

Mr. Silverman: Maybe that is so, but I do not know. Subsection (1) says:
One half of the value of any rights which have accrued or probably will accrue to him


therefrom in respect of industrial injury benefit, industrial disablement benefit or sickness benefit.
Sickness benefit does not apply, but the Industrial Injuries Act provides the possibility of making a supplemental voluntary scheme and that may be interpreted as a scheme under the Act. What a man got under the supplementary scheme, if one came into operation, might still be described as an industrial injury benefit or an industrial disablement benefit. If my right hon. and learned Friend says that that is not his intention and that it is not the intention of the Bill, I am very grateful, but I hope that words will be introduced into the Bill to make it abundantly clear. That is what I am asking for.
I had put on the Order Paper a Motion to reject the Bill. That was directed against Clause 2, which I do not regard as only a Committee point. The other points upon Clause 3 are no doubt Committee points, and I would not ask the House to reject the Measure only on their account. In view of the assurance about Clause 2 which the right hon. and learned Gentleman has made, I do not propose to move my Motion.

12.57 p.m.

Mr. Sargood: I do not intend to discuss the legal implications of the Bill. We have already seen that there are quite a number of legal luminaries in the House who are well able to do that, and I do not intend to compete with them, particularly, as I would not be able to advance in an encounter of that kind the plea of common employment. I wish to convey to the Attorney-General and the Government the satisfaction that will be felt by millions of work-people at some of the proposals in this Bill. The Attorney-General mentioned that there were a very large number of cases where, because of the possibility of the plea of common employment, action had not been taken, and I can endorse that very fully from my experience in the trade union movement. With the removal of that plea, there will be possibilities of a very much greater measure of justice being done, and for that reason alone, the Bill will be welcomed by the trade union movement, which has long advocated this change.

12.59 p.m.

Mr. Turner-Samuels: Apart from one or two minor provisions and subject to most of the Clauses other than Clause I going, I regard this as a very good Bill indeed. All progressive lawyers will rejoice at the complete disappearance at last of the doctrine of common employment. It is perfectly correct what the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) said—and I am sure that the shade of Baron Abinger will be grateful to him for what he said—that it is difficult to deduce from Lord Abinger's judgment anything which justifies what has followed from it. That was a case where the facts were very simple—a van was overloaded by one servant with the result that another servant became injured; and the fact remains that the decision was that the employer was held not to be liable because the negligence was that of a fellow servant. Whatever Lord Abinger may have decided, whatever his words import, the result was that it turned out very disastrously for a long period of time for many of those who were injured in their employment, because it did imply acceptance of risk by one fellow servant of the negligence of another, which has proved the basis for this doctrine of common employment ever since. It is true that it was an import from American jurisprudence, but, nevertheless, the effect of it has been felt here for over 100 years.
Another extraordinary thing is that this doctrine was not brought within clearly defined bounds until 1939. Prior to then, it was made to apply to a wide variety of cases and was not cut down in any precise way, and it was only in 1939, as I think the right hon. and learned Member for West Derby will remember, in a case which came from his district, the case of Radcliffe v. Ribble Motor Services, in which I had the honour to appear with my right hon. and learned Friend the present Chancellor of the Exchequer on behalf of the plaintiff—it was only then that this doctrine became confined within controllable limits. It was laid down there that instead of the wide operation of the rule, which appeared to apply in every case where one servant was injured from the negligence of another, the doctrine was made to apply to a very much narrower field.


Nevertheless, even at that its effect still remained highly objectionable and completely indefensible.
There was another instance in the Court of Appeal in a well-known case, that of Pollock v. Burt, when the doctrine was still further restricted. A further and most important result of these two cases, with both of which I was professionally associated, was that they showed beyond doubt that this particular doctrine of common employment had become completely discredited, decrepit and legally debunked. It is not altogether fair to criticise the judges about this matter, as they have been criticised. It is true that before 1939 they may have been open to adverse criticism but, in 1939, in the House of Lords, especially in the cases of Lord Atkin, Lord Macmillan and Lord Wright, they were obviously and vocally anxious to do everything they possibly could clearly to define and narrow down the doctrine. I remember Lord Atkin saying that had it not been that this doctrine had persisted for 100 years, the House of Lords would have considered whether the rule should not have been done away with altogether. That in fact was what my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor, who was leading counsel in the case, had asked for. The rule, however, was too deeply rooted to make it possible for the House of Lords entirely to abrogate the effect of the doctrine.
In the result, no self-respecting Government could allow this doctrine any longer to remain part of our industrial law, and that, in itself, is a sufficiently good ground for putting in Clause 1 of this Bill. In addition, I think everyone agrees that the Monckton Committee and the result of their inquiry completed the demise of this doctrine, and all this House is concerned with to-day is to bury it as quickly as possible. It was said in the House of Lords that Clause 2 of this Bill was a sort of consideration given to employers for the abolition of this particular doctrine, but that was a completely untenable position to take up. There can be no doubt that the doctrine itself, having been discredited by everyone, was bound to go, and that it was proper to get rid of it. The idea that Clause 2 should be a kind of consideration in this way was, in my view, completely insupportable.
It has been said, and this is the last and most attenuated argument that has been advanced to support the retention of this doctrine, that, if it goes, workmen will be less careful than they were before. I do not think any workman, or indeed anyone, takes risks merely for the purpose of getting damages. I think that view is all wrong. I remember very vividly Lord Justice Kennedy, in an insurance case many years ago, using a striking phrase in which he said, "A man does not gamble with his life in order to gain a Pyrrhic victory by his death," and that principle clearly equally applies here. I do not think it is either true or just to say that a working man, or any other rational person, is prepared to take these risks in order to get damages, and I do not accept that any worker or employee is heedless of the safety of another employed with him.
I think all workers and employees are very conscious of the responsibilities which they have in preserving the safety of each other, and it is very significant that this argument about being more careless was the very argument which was raised when the Workmen's Compensation Acts were originally introduced. Experience has shown that that was completely unwarranted.
The learned Attorney-General referred to the Act of 1880, by which Parliament recognised that this doctrine was bad and that Act was intended to mitigate it. Unfortunately, it failed in practice. The Workmen's Compensation Acts, which also had the same object, had considerable limitations, so far as their effect on this doctrine of common employment was concerned. I would like, in passing, to refer to Clause 1 (3), which provides that there should be no contracting out of this provision in the Clause. I think it is only right here to say that the introduction of that particular provision was due to Lord Simon, in another place, raising the point and receiving the assent of the Lord Chancellor, to the Clause being subsequently introduced. It would have been a very serious defect if the provisions had been left so that the employer might have contracted with the servant that this very important provision, should be modified or ought not to apply. Therefore, that was an excellent provision to make.
With regard to the question of the measure of damages, there has been a conflict of views as to whether the injured person—the workman or even anyone, say, sustaining an accident in the street—should receive both the benefits under the Industrial Injuries and the National Insurance Acts and also damages, or only one of them. The consensus of opinion in the Monckton Committee, and also the evidence before it, was strongly in favour of both remedies being available. I cannot myself see on what grounds the assumption is based that there should be a deduction from the insurance benefits in arriving at the amount of damages. The Attorney-General has frankly stated that this idea has no logical basis. It seems to be purely a solution of convenience and a compromise between the conflicting proposals which have been made. On the other hand, I see no reason why damages should be affected in this way. Benefits are essentially insurance.
The Attorney-General mentioned the fact that a contribution is being made by the third party and also by the employer, but I do not think there is very much force in that point. The fact which impresses me is that, as far as the employer is concerned, he is actually getting rid of his liability for workmen's compensation, which is quite a substantial matter. He is getting rid of a heavy liability, but, for reasons which I do not see and which are admitted not to be resting upon any logical ground, the benefits provided in the statute are to be taken into consideration. This is a matter at which the Government might well look again. It is true that the provision is not to apply to the Fatal Accidents Act, and its amendments but it is to apply to the case where the plaintiff makes his claim himself or, if he is dead, a claim is made for the benefit of his estate.
I ask the learned Attorney-General to look at Subsection (3) of Clause 3, which appears to be ambiguous. Does it mean that, where damages are reduced because of the worker's contributory negligence, no injury benefits are to be taken into account? Or does it mean that one must first regard the case as though there was no contributory negligence and, then, having got the proper damages; one must deduct the value of half of the five years' benefits and proceed to scale down the

balance according to the degree of the worker's contributory negligence? If that is the intention, the Subsection certainly requires to be looked at again.
A further criticism of this Subsection is that the benefits themselves are not an adequate substitute for the workman's common law rights. I think it is admitted on all sides that the benefit under National Insurance is not equivalent to the remedy under common law. In serious cases the remedy would certainly be completely inadequate, a fact which is amply illustrated by the examples given in the Monckton Report.
I welcome the fact that Clause 2 is now to go. I do not think the chatter was sufficiently considered in another place, otherwise the Clause would never have been put in the Bill. Everyone agrees that in industry today workmen are exposed to more and greater risks than ever before; the hours are often longer; the tempo of production is very much increased; there is dilution of less skilled workers; and as a result of the war there is much greater fatigue. For these reasons there is a greater need for safety measures than ever before. As will be seen from the last report of the Chief Inspector of Factories, the numbers of fatal accidents in mines and in factories are now very much higher than in 1939, especially in the case of young persons, to whom there are now many more accidents than formerly. The Inspector's report demonstrates moreover, that in consequence of liability employers are constantly endeavouring to make suggestions to the makers of machines for their improvement. In this way, because of employers' responsibility and liability, machinery in factories and mines is constantly being improved and made more safe. Two examples will serve as illustrations. One is the case of power presses, as to which there has been very great difficulty and danger; the guards for power presses have, in spite of very great difficulties, now been so improved that the danger there is being more and more reduced. In the case of hydraulic presses, greater safety devices are always being introduced because of this very liability which falls upon the employer.
I suggest that there is only one safe course to adopt: the duties of the employer must be clearly specified. That must be done so that he shall know pre-


cisely what are his duties and obligations. I agree, however, that in certain cases it may be proper to relieve him, but even there the nature of such relief must be clearly and precisely stated. If that is not done, and if there is a dispute or a case taken by a workman against his employer, the employer is encouraged to fight the case; whereas now, in most such cases, the employer usually settles them. The result of Clause 2 would be to produce a multiplicity of cases, each one of which would have to be decided upon its own facts. This would lead only to a multiplicity of actions and to considerable confusion.
I am accordingly pleased that Clause 2 is now to go, because it does away with what otherwise would have undoubtedly caused a standstill in the improvement in the safety of industrial machinery. My view is that, if an employer uses machinery which is dangerous, he must take the risk of the consequences of that danger; the onus should be upon him to eliminate the danger. For all these reasons, I congratulate the Government upon this excellent Measure, particularly for the abolition of that pernicious doctrine of common employment; and because they have withdrawn Clause 2, which I consider to have been a bad Clause. Finally, although I have criticised Clause 3, I feel sure that the Government will look at it again and make such modifications as the circumstances may seem to require.

1.20 p.m.

Mr. Weitzman: I desire to join in the chorus of approval and welcome of this Measure. It is a matter of solid satisfaction to feel that in a heavy programme the Government have found time for a Bill of this kind, especially when it is remembered that a similar Measure was put forward in 1893 by Mr. Asquith when he was Home Secretary. Ultimately, all lawyers have recognised the necessity for such a Bill as this, for the law as it stands undoubtedly causes great hardship and should be altered. I also welcome the decision of the Government to take steps to remove Clause 2 as it now is from the Bill.
My only excuse for venturing to take up any time of the House is because I desire to make a point of criticism in re-

gard to Clause 3. I do not for a moment agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman), when he said that there was no necessity for that Clause. There is a clear necessity for a Clause of this kind. In the past there was workmen's compensation and it was necessary for the workman to elect which of the remedies he proposed to pursue. Now that workmen's compensation has gone, or will be going, quite obviously the courts will have to face the task of what are the things which should be taken into consideration in assessing damages. I should have thought that rather than have long discussions in the Courts and possibly conflicting decisions which may well do harm in many cases, it is a good thing that Parliament should declare in a Bill how the damages should be assessed.
I agree with the principle that we have set out here. Very careful thought was given to this by the members of the Monckton Committee. They, of course, recommended that benefits should be taken off in assessing damages. One can see a grave objection to that, because clearly the employee has at any rate paid five-twelfths of the contribution. On the other hand, the Government have taken the view, which they have put forward in this Bill, that a short, rough and rapid method of dealing with it is by saying, "We shall take 50 per cent. of the benefit for five years, and the judge or jury, in arriving at the verdict, should take that into account and deduct what they estimate should be this amount." I appreciate that it is a difficult matter, but this at any rate can be said of the view put forward in the Bill, that it does make for finality. I want to point out a number of difficulties which may arise. I recognise that the Attorney-General has said that this is a compromise, and all compromises must have points which can be attacked. I suggest that there are a number of points which should be looked at before the Government decide to adopt what is put forward in the Bill.
This Clause will be extremely difficult to apply. It says:
There shall in assessing those damages be taken into account, against any loss of earnings or profits which has accrued or probably will accrue to the injured person from the injuries, one half of the value of any rights which have accrued or probably will accrue to him therefrom in respect of in-


dustrial injury benefit, industrial disablement benefit or sickness benefit for the five years beginning with the time when the cause of action accrued.
I read the words, because the mere reading of them shows the difficulty with which one has to contend. There is the case of a single person who is injured and who may marry but for whom the benefits may change in a short time during that period of five years. Supposing it is a married man with children, or even a single man who marries and subsequently has children, there will be changes during five years, and that shows what an extraordinary task faces the judge or jury when dealing'-with the problem of how best to estimate the benefit that has accrued or will accrue, and other factors of that kind which have to be taken into consideration.
Moreover, it may well be that Parliament in its wisdom may decide that the rate of benefit shall change. What are we going to do in regard to that? Surely, it shows that it will be very much a matter of real guesswork on the part of the judge or jury? Nevertheless, it is a flagrant case where a wrongdoer will get real benefit. It means, in a case where there are considerable injuries, that during the five years there will be a substantial sum by way of benefit, the estimated value of which sum is deducted from the amount the judge or jury may award, with the wrongdoer getting the benefit in regard to the payment.
I was very much attracted by the suggestions made by Mr. F. W. Beney, K.C., who was a member of the Monckton Committee, in his reservations. He is a leading member of the Bar who, I suppose, has as much experience as anyone of this kind of case. I respectfully suggest that his views are well worth looking at from the point of view of inserting something on the lines of his recommendations. What he suggested was that the whole sum in respect of compensation should be awarded against the wrongdoer. In other words, when the case is tried a judge or jury, in assessing the amount of damages, should arrive at what is a proper sum to be awarded for compensation—meaning by that special damages as well as general damages—and will take no note whatever of anything about insurance or disablement benefits. At a later stage when that verdict has been ascertained, the

benefits made in respect of disablement or sickness will be taken off by the State. One agrees they should not deduct the whole amount. Quite obviously, that would be unfair to the worker.
If the Government take the view, in putting forward the Bill, that no regard should be had to these benefits, well and good, but if it is accepted that some deduction ought to be made because the workman has no right to receive, in addition to the whole amount, certain payments that he receives afterwards in respect of disablement, then I suggest a good way of doing it might be to say that for a period of five years following the accident he should be paid 50 per cent. of the benefit. I do not bind myself to these figures, but I suggest they should be looked at. In that way what is done is that, first of all, the judge and jury are not troubled with the question of deductions at all. I have pointed out how difficult that might be to assess the value of benefits to come. Secondly, the wrongdoer pays the whole of the amount of compensation for he is not relieved of any payment in any way because of the fact that there is State insurance. Thirdly, the State gets the benefit. In other words, the State saves something, because only a certain proportion of the benefits for a certain time are paid to the worker.
Fourthly, in addition to the amount of damages the workman is awarded, he gets a proportion agreed upon, for example, 50 per cent. of the benefit, for a period of five years or the lesser period of his disablement. When this point arises there is no difficulty whatever in regard to the assessment, and, therefore, no new complication in that way. It seems to me that the Clause as at present drafted is open to considerable objections on both, sides, any]. I would suggest that if this recommendation is looked at in that way it might enable some redrafting to be made which would satisfy to same extent the points which I have made.
There is one further comment I would add. The remedies effected by the Bill are sound and one, of course, welcomes them, but I am rather sorry to see that one of the points dealt with in the Monckton Committee has not been dealt with in the Bill. That was the alteration of the time limitation in regard to the proceedings brought under the Fatal Accidents Act and in regard to claims against


public authorities. The recommendation made by the Monckton Committee was that instead of a year limitation there should be a limitation of three years. One knows there have been many hard cases where, because a year has elapsed, it has been impossible for the injured person to bring an action. I should have thought it might have been appropriate that some Clause should be drafted here altering the time limitation in the way suggested.

1.31 p.m.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Frank Soskice): This is a very short, but a very important Bill. It affects not only the workers in this country, but it also affects the pedestrian, the driver of a motor car and citizens at large. It deals with issues which I think are fully understood, not only by lawyers but also by laymen. It has been fully discussed during the course of the Debate today, and after the opening of my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General I feel I can hardly assist the House by endeavouring to go over the ground which he has covered so amply in his exposition of the Bill. Accordingly, in my address to the House, I think I can most usefully confine myself to some of the few points which have emerged in the speeches of hon. Members.
I will not join in the chorus of disapproval of the doctrine of common employment which has been voiced on Clause I. I think everybody, judges included, have felt a lack of sympathy with the doctrine of common employment. Judges have to interpret the law as they find it, but they have had little sympathy with the spirit which underlies that doctrine. I will, therefore, pass from that Clause. Clause 2, again, is a Clause with which I feel I cannot usefully detain the House, having regard to the fact that, as has been said by my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General, we propose at a later stage of the Bill to eliminate that Clause from its context.
I will accordingly go straight to Clause 3. I would like to say this at the outset; criticism has come from various quarters with regard to the deduction, and it is said, on the one hand, that there should be no deduction and, on the other hand, that deduction should be to the full extent of the benefit which would be awarded under the Act. By way of

general observation on Clause 3 I would say that it is, after all, the first time that the injured workman has not been put to an election. In the old days he had to elect whether he would rely upon his remedy under the Workmen's Compensation Act or whether he would pursue his claim in common law. Supposing, in the uncertainty which must always attend a choice of that sort, he decided to rely on the common law remedy, he was thereby virtually in a position that, until his case had been brought before the court and the court had made the final decision, he could not draw compensation, or indeed any compensation which might be provided for him under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Weeks and months would go by and he would find himself entirely deprived of all sources of income. He would be able to get payment due to him only when the court which finally adjudicated on his claim had reached its final decision.
The most important change, to which attention has not been called during this Debate, is that this situation has been brought to an end. When the workman is injured his right to payments under the Act begins, and he receives those payments. He does not find himself with no income at all for a long period. He gets that amount of income, and, what the Act also proceeds to do is to provide machinery for determining how much is to be deducted in the damages he may finally be awarded in respect of the payment he receives under the Act. That is a radical departure from the past and it very greatly improves the situation of the injured worker. He is not put to that appallingly difficult choice as to which means of remedy he should elect, whether to risk the claim at common law knowing, if he does so, he must for months be without any sources of income, or whether to take the more certain path of relying on his rights under the Workmen's Compensation Act, foregoing what may well be a perfectly valid claim to substantially larger payments which he might recover at common law.
That is the general observation I wish to make and I venture to submit it is a consideration of very great importance in deciding the effect on the injured workmen's situation brought about by Clause 3. The question arises, should deduction be made or should it not? I feel I cannot usefully re-state tile arguments which have


been advanced from either side on that particular aspect of the Bill; there are those who say the whole amount should be deducted and those who say none should be deducted. As my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General told the House quite frankly, this is an endeavour to compromise between conflicting points of view. We hope it is a fair compromise, but no compromise can escape criticism.
It has been argued by the hon. and learned Member for Crewe (Mr. Scholefield Allen) that if one makes a deduction, at any rate one should not make a deduction where the claim of the injured person is brought not against the employer, but against some other person. I would reply to that criticism by pointing out that the National Insurance scheme is, after all, a scheme which covers the whole nation. It is not, as it were, a matter finally and exclusively between the workman and the employer. We all contribute and we are al] entitled to the benefit under the Act.
The view is taken, therefore, rightly or wrongly, in an endeavour to achieve a compromise which we recommend to the House, that one cannot really, logically and practically—and I would stress the word "practically"—draw a distinction between a claim against an employer and a claim against a third person. Once it is accepted that the argument in favour of a deduction is right to the extent that there should be at least a deduction of a half, it is really not feasible to draw lines of distinction between the two types of actions. Quite frankly, therefore, we have a compromise in the Act. We hope it will be found to work out fairly in the end. One of the points of that compromise is that deduction deals only with a period of five years from the date of the happening which causes the injury.
The hon. and learned Member for Chester (Mr. Nield) raised the question where although the Act says you may take account against any loss of earnings or profits half of the benefits received under the Act, nevertheless a judge and jury, in assessing general damages should bear in mind by way of diminution of those general damages the situation that the working out of the mathematical computation in Clause 3 would bring about the result that the injured person would

receive, in his example, £1 more. The intention of the Act is that that excess should not be taken into account by way of diminishing the sum which is awarded by way of general damages. That is the object and intention of the Clause. Whether the language of the Clause is entirely appropriate to effect that purpose perhaps requires a little further consideration. Whether one should add some word like "otherwise" after the word "profits" is a matter which will have to be taken into account, and I will only say that I am grateful to the hon. and learned Member for having drawn our attention to that problem, which will have to be considered.
My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Crewe and my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke Newington (Mr. Weitzman) both raised the point that one could not be certain that a judge or a jury under the direction of a judge will arrive at anything like an accurate computation of the figure envisaged by Clause 3. The hon. Member for Stoke Newington said that, after all, the injured person may be married and he may have children, and as a result the benefits to which he becomes entitled under the Act may vary. They may become greater. The question is, what is to happen in cases like that? I would simply reply by saying that, after all, many judges, in directing themselves when assessing damages or directing juries in assessing damages, have had, and will have in the future, to decide problems infinitely more difficult than such an arithmetical problem. It is a problem. Undoubtedly, it is; but I would say that, after all, one cannot, in this assessing of damages, in evaluating the extent of injury of somebody, for example, run over in the street, go into too great nicety in an endeavour to arrive at complete and final accuracy in the matter. Judges and juries, over and over again, have had to do their best in the circumstances. They have had before them the circumstances affecting the life of an individual. They have had to say what, in terms of pounds, shillings and pence, is the loss and effect upon that particular head, and make an award to that injured person, and they have had—I do not want to say, to make a shot in the dark—but they have had to do the best that they could to arrive at a figure. That is what they have had to do in the past.
As to the question of the limitation of the five years period, it would, no doubt, be infinitely more difficult for a judge or a judge and jury to perform that difficult computation if they had to consider benefits for the remainder of the life of the injured person. It will be easier for them to make that computation when they have a purview of five years from the date of the happening of the injury. Personally speaking, I hope and believe that there should not be any real difficulty in arriving at some satisfactory solution in all the circumstances. After all, there has not been any great difficulty in the past in that connection, and sums awarded by way of damage, I may confidently say, I think, have generally commanded the approval of the community, which follows with the greatest of interest the proceedings before our courts.
I should like to pass to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). He called attention to Section 83 of the Act. He asked what is going to happen with regard to supplementary schemes which may be advanced under the terms of Section 83 of the Act? He raised the point on two footings, and one was the definition of the Section. I should have thought that definition there does not include benefits provided in a supplementary scheme of that sort. The problem, when it emerged, required most anxious thought. I would pass from that to say that I think it is premature to express a view about it, beyond saying that the matter will, perhaps, have to be looked at further from a drafting point of view. I should think that, as at present drafted, the terms of the Section would not cover benefits payable under such a supplementary scheme.
Really when one looks in retrospect over the points that have been made during the course of the Debate, I think I have covered most of them. The remainder of the points that were made by my hon. Friend the Member for Nelson and Colne come to the general issue 'of deduction or no deduction. I invite the House to agree with me when I say that I cannot assist the House by deploying the arguments already deployed in the report of the Committee which investigated the matter, and which have been lucidly restated by my right hon. and learned Friend.
I would just 'mention one final suggestion made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke Newington, because it does touch—although he dealt with it as a matter of particular difficulty—in my view, a matter of wider principle. What he was suggesting in support of his argument was that difficulty might arise in the actual assessment of the damages by a judge or a judge and jury, and he put forward Mr. Beney's proposal to the effect that damages should be assessed, and thereafter, during the period of five years, he suggested tentatively, deductions might be made upon the benefit under the Act, when those benefits were actually paid to the injured person. Of course, Mr. Beney's suggestion, like all the other proposals put forward, was very carefully considered. I do not think that Mr. Beney's suggestion in that respect would greatly advance the purposes of this Bill. It is, I feel, in the interests of everybody concerned, particularly in the interests of the man who has been injured, who wants to know where he stands, that the computation should be assessed once and for all as far as the question of damages awarded by a judge or a judge and jury is concerned.
The wider principle is this. It is surely of the greatest importance that he should receive without deduction those benefits which the Act provides. He knows that, whatever else happens to him, whether he gets damages, whatever he gets by way of damages, and if he gets no damages, he can, at least, look forward to and rely upon receiving the benefits which the Act provides. He knows exactly what they are going to be, and that they are not subject to any diminution, and are not dependent on any calculation as far as he is concerned. As a member of the community, having paid his contributions, having sustained his injury, he knows quite clearly what is the position so far as the Act, at any rate, is concerned. I feel that that position is of great value to him. He will, therefore, know how he stands. His position may be greatly improved in the sense that he may have damages. But at least he knows the minimum of what he can weekly rely upon as coming into his home to enable him to support his wife and family. It is for that reason that I invite the House to accept the view that the suggestion made by Mr. Beney, and recommended by my hon. Friend the


Member for Stoke Newington, should not be adopted. I do say that the matter is one which impinges upon the wider principle which underlies the whole of the National Insurance scheme. The injured person must, at least, know what he is entitled to as a minimum beyond which he cannot be expected to go. That is secured now by the terms of this Bill, and that principle would be impinged upon if Mr. Beney's suggestion were accepted.
For those reasons I ask the House to say that the Government were entirely right in the view they took in regard to that proposal, that it was not one that should be accepted. Having listened with the greatest sympathy to the speeches in the course of this Debate which echoed what I, personally, feel about this Bill, I do not think I can usefully take up the time of the House further in dealing with points that, no doubt, when the Bill goes before the Committee, will be further investigated. The House has thoroughly investigated the principle, and, I think, approves the principle, upon which this Bill is framed, and accordingly I hope will now be prepared to let it have its Second Reading.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time, and committed to a Standing Committee.

Orders of the Day — SUPERANNUATION (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL

Order for consideration, as amended (in the Standing Committee), read.

Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House in respect of the Amendments standing on the Notice Paper in the name of Mr. Glenvil Hall.—[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]

Bill immediately considered in Committee.

[Mr. HUBERT BEAUMONT in the Chair.]

1.50 p.m.

CLAUSE 2.—(Pensions of persons transferring to different employment.)

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I beg to move, in page 5, line 16, to leave out from "(a)," to "and," in line 20, and to insert:

of Subsection (2) of this Section, payments out of moneys provided by Parliament;
(c) where either of the employments is such an employment as is mentioned in paragraph (b) of the said Subsection (2), payments out of the Metropolitan Police Fund;
(d) where either of the employments is such an employment as is mentioned in paragraph (e) of the said Subsection (2), payments out of moneys provided by Parliament or out of the Education (Scotland) Fund.

Mr. George Thomas: On a point of Order, Mr. Beaumont, I am sorry to interrupt my right hon. Friend, but are you not calling the Amendment in the names of my hon. Friends and myself?

The Deputy-Chairman: That Amendment will be dealt with on the next stage of the Bill.

Mr, Glenvil Hall: This is a drafting Amendment, intended to make it clearer from what source payments in the various instances to which this Bill is directed will be made. Clause 2 gives wide powers to devise new superannuation arrangements, to facilitate the interchange of staff between the Civil Service and teachers, between the local authorities and the teaching profession, and so on.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 5, line 32, to leave out "and (c)," and to insert "(c), (d) and (e)."
This is a drafting Amendment, consequent upon the one which has just been accepted.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4.—(Special Provision as to certain other transfers to the service of the State.)

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 8, line 6, to leave out "section," and to insert "subsection."
This is a minor drafting Amendment. The rules will actually be made under Subsection (1) of this Clause, rather than under the whole Clause.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 8, line 39, at the end, to insert:
(d) persons who, having been employed by the body known as the Meteorological Committee, became at any time before the passing of this Act civil servants in the Meteorological Office of the Secretary of State, not being civil servants subject to a superannuation scheme to which section five of the Superannuation Act, 1946 (which relates to the application to persons employed in the civil service of the State of certain superannuation schemes), applies.
From 1910 until 1920, the responsibility for Government meteorology rested with a body known as the Meteorological Committee. Some of the staff employed were covered by a superannuation scheme run by the Committee itself. For others, there was no superannuation provision. In April, 1920, the Meteorological Office, together with the staff, were taken over by the Air Ministry. The staff, were given the option of remaining, and some chose to to remain, subject to the Meteorological Committee's superannuation scheme and not to become established civil servants. Others came under the Federated Superannuation Scheme for Universities, known as the F.S.S.U., as applied to Government servants; others became established civil servants subject to the Civil Service Superannuation Acts. Those who did that forewent any rights under the Committee's scheme.
The purpose of this Amendment is to enable the Treasury to make rules allowing the service of those who became established civil servants in the Meteorological Office, not being subject to the F.S.S.U., to reckon their service under the Meteorological Committee as unestablished service under the Superannuation Acts. In other words, it permits them to count as to half their earlier service before they joined the Air Ministry staff and became established civil servants.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 9, line 23, at the end, to insert:
(3) Rules to be made by the Treasury under this Subsection may make provision to secure that benefits corresponding as nearly as may be to the benefits conferred under Subsection (1) of this Section on or in respect of the persons specified in paragraph (d) of that Subsection are conferred on or in respect of persons who, having been employed by the aforesaid Meteorological Committee, were at any time before the passing of this Act employed in the civil service of the State in the aforesaid Meteorological Office and became and

thereafter remained subject to a superannuation scheme to which Section five of the Superannuation Act, 1946, applies.
This is complementary to the Amendment just accepted. It permits those who elected in the early 1920's to go under the F.S.S.U. scheme and not to become established civil servants to count service in the same way as under the Amendment which has just been accepted.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 6.—(Special provisions as to local government superannuation schemes during periods of emergency.)

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Health (Mr. John Edwards): I beg to move, in page 10, line 13, to leave out "capital."
On reflection, we have concluded that as reductions may also be made in maintenance expenditure, it would be a pity to qualify the word "expenditure" by "capital," and therefore we seek to omit that word.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Edwards: I beg to move, in page line 32, to leave out from "employment," to "or," in line 34.
As things stand at present, the extended period of grace which is given to the officers who are dismissed is to be the shorter of the periods: either the five years from the date when the employee leaves his employment, or 12 months after the expiration of the period of emergency. In the Bill the period is defined in Subsection (1) of this Clause, and since the period is not intended to be the whole period of national retrenchment, but the period which the Minister defines under the Subsection during which the adjustment is actually being made, this might be a comparatively short period. We think it would be unreasonable to expect the people concerned to get back into employment within 12 months, so we think it better to give everybody the full period of grace of five years.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. Berry: On a point of Order, Mr. Beaumont; may I ask whether you are calling the Amendment in my name?

The Deputy-Chairman: That will be taken at the next stage of the Bill.
Further Amendment made: In page 11, line 43, leave out "has," and insert "had."—[Mr. J. Edwards.]

Mr. J. Edwards: I beg to move, in page 12, line 14, at the end, to insert:
(5) Where a person to whom this Section applies has again become a contributory employee or local Act contributor under a local authority, then if—

(a) any event occurs by virtue of which a pension would, but for the fact that he has not completed a specied number of years service, be payable to or in respect of him under the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, or the local Act scheme; and
(b) he would, if he had not ceased to be such an employee or contributor owing to action taken for emergency purposes, have completed the aforesaid service by the date of the happening of the event,

a pension shall, notwithstanding the fact that he has not completed the aforesaid service, be deemed to be payable to or in respect of him on the happening of the said event and the said Act or scheme shall have effect accordingly.
This Amendment rectifies an omission. At the moment, Subsection (4) provides that where a person to whom this provision applies reaches an age while he is still out of local government service at which he would have been able to retire if he had stayed in the service, he will be able to get a pension based on the years which he had actually served before he retired. This was designed to meet the obvious cases of difficulty of people who might be dismissed in the late 50's and who would not be able to get back within the time. However, it has the effect of allowing these persons to reckon their period out of local government service as a qualifying period in reckoning eligibility for benefit, but not in reckoning its amount. As the Clause stands, there is no such provision in the case of someone who returns to local government, and this new subsection proposes to repair that omission. Putting it in another way, we do not want anomalies between those who do and those who do not get back into local government service, and this remedies the risk of such an anomaly arising.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7.—(Power to extend Local Government Superannuation Act. 1937, or Local Government Superannuation (Scotland) Act, 1937, to employees of certain associations.)

2.0 p.m.

Mr. J. Edwards: I beg to move, in page 12, line 24, to leave out from "any," to "makes," in line 25, and to insert:
body, being either—

(a) a body representative of local authorities; or
(b) a body representative of local authorities and officers of local authorities; or
(c) a body representative of officers of local authorities formed for the purpose of consultation as to the common interests of those authorities and the discussion of matters relating to local government."

All the Amendments to this Clause are designed to meet an objection raised in Committee. The objection was that the Clause, as drafted, would enable any of the unions connected with local government to enter local government superannuation schemes. That was not the purpose of the Clause. As it appears to be the general wish that they should be excluded, these Amendments have been put down. The Clause will cover, first, a body representative of local authorities which includes any of the local authority associations; secondly, a body representative of local authorities and their officers jointly, and, thirdly, a body representative of officers of local authorities, provided it is formed for the purpose of consulting as to the common interest of those authorities and the discussion of matters relating to local government. The words of this last group have been taken from Section 129 of the Local Government Act, 1948, which enables local authorities to pay subscriptions to associations of officers which satisfy this description. The wording of that Section was specifically designed to include organisations of officers of local authorities formed for the purpose of consultation as to the common interest of local authorities, and for discussing matters relating to local government.

Mr. Berry: This Amendment will go a long way towards meeting the fears of local authorities that they might find it difficult to resist applications of the type to which the Parliamentary Secretary has


referred. There has been a long discussion on this matter, and I think that the Amendment will give general satisfaction and will be welcomed by the local authorities.

Mr. Assheton: Like the hon. Member for West Woolwich (Mr. Berry), I am glad that this Amendment has been moved by the Government. It meets some of the difficulties we foresaw during the Committee stage. There was certainly a gap in the Clause which needed filling, and we are now quite satisfied with the Clause as amended.

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendments made.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 16.—(Interpretation.)

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 19, line 40, after "includes," to insert:
the Metropolitan Police Fund and.
This is a minor drafting Amendment to extend the interpretation of "pensions fund" to include the Metropolitan Police Fund. This has become necessary because of the admission of the Metropolitan Police Fund to the class in respect of which the transfer machinery of Clause 2 may be applied.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE.—(Amendment of Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1945, s. 3.)

Section three of the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, 1945 (which provides that a person in contributory service shall not be subject to an independent superannuation scheme, as there defined) shall, in relation to any person who becomes employed in contributory service after the passing of this Act, have effect as if for Subsection (2) of that section (which relates to persons becoming employed in contributory service who, but for the said provision, would be subject to such a scheme) there were substituted the following Subsection, that is to say—
(2) where a person who becomes employed in contributory service after the commencement of this Act—

(a) has, not more than one year before he so becomes employed in contributory service, been subject to an independent superannuation scheme; and

(b) would, but for the fact that the service in which he so becomes employed is contributory service, be subject to such a scheme in respect of that service,

the service in which he so becomes employed shall not be treated as contributory service and he shall be subject to the independent superannuation scheme accordingly:
Provided that if any person who is subject to an independent superannuation scheme by virtue of the foregoing provisions of this Subsection elects, by notice in writing to the Minister of Education and to the body administering the scheme given within three months of the date of his becoming employed in contributory service, or within such longer period as the Minister of Education may in any particular case allow, to withdraw from the scheme, the said provisions shall not have effect in relation to any service in which he is employed after the election takes effect "—[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
As the Committee are aware, this is an extremely complicated Measure, and the language of the Clauses, except that dealing with the title, is somewhat obscure. Although this Clause seems formidable and is pretty long, its object is very simple. It secures that where a person who comes under an independent superannuation scheme becomes a teacher, and would be able to continue under the scheme but for the fact that his service as a teacher is contributory service under the Teachers (Superannuation) Act, he may elect whether he will stay under his original scheme, or whether he will come under the teachers' superannuation scheme. What is being done here is to permit this choice in certain cases not covered by the earlier legislation.

Question put, and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended (in the Standing Committee, and on re-committal) considered.

CLAUSE 1.—(Treatment of compulsory National Service for pension purposes.)

Mr. Ralph Morley: I beg to move, in page 1, line 16, to leave out paragraph (c).
This paragraph is entirely valueless so far as teachers are concerned. It provides that if a teacher is in contributory service when he is called up to do his period of National Service, his period of National


Service will count for pensionable service. In point of fact, no teacher will be in contributory service when called upon to perform his period of National Service. The teacher does not come into contributory service until he has left college, and has become a qualified teacher. The Minister of Education has laid it down recently, by regulation, that intending teachers must do their period of National Service before entering college. The position outlined by this paragraph will, therefore, be as follows: that women, who do not have to do National Service, and men who have been rejected on physical or other grounds for National Service, will enter college at the age of 18, will leave at 20, and enter into contributory service.
At 60, they will have completed 40 years' service, and will be entitled to draw their full pension under the various Teachers' Superannuation Acts. But the young man who is accepted for National Service will not enter on that service, as the regulations are at: present, until he is 18 years and nine months old. He will not complete his National Service until he is 19 years and nine months old. There is bound to be a waiting period between the termination of his National Service and the time he enters college, so even in the best of circumstances the intending teacher who has done his period of National Service will not enter college until he is 20, perhaps 21 or, in some cases, 22. He will not have completed his 40 years' service until he is 61, 62 or 63. He will lose one, two, or three years' pensionable service as a result of the wording of paragraph (c) of this Clause.
Intending teachers are being penalised because they are tendering a National Service. I pointed this out at some length on the Second Reading of the Bill when, in reply to the arguments that were adduced, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education said:
… inasmuch as I am responsible for the policy which has been entered upon, whereby young people take their training before they enter college, I am prepared to give an undertaking, at least, that the point will be looked into, and that we will see whether it cannot be dealt … with when we reach the Committee stage.… Inasmuch as women teachers form part of the superannuation scheme, unless something can be done to help forward this suggestion it might give rise to rancour between the sexes in the ranks of teachers, which is the last thing we want in the education service."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 27th February, 1948; Vol. 447, c. 2327–3.]

That seemed to be a definite assurance; at least, we so regarded it, and I was surprised to find, when the Committee stage was reached, that no Amendment embodying this assurance had been put down by the Minister of Education. Accordingly, my hon. Friends and I, on the Committee stage, moved another Amendment, asking that if a teacher had passed the qualifying examination for entrance to college before taking up his National Service, his period of National Service, and the waiting period between the termination of that service and entering college, should count for pensionable purposes. That seemed to be a reasonable Amendment and, again, we had an assurance from the Minister, who said:
I ask my hon. Friends to withdraw the Amendment. I promise that it will receive further consideration between now and the Report stage.… I ask my hon. Friends to withdraw it, on the undertaking that between now and the Report stage we will see what can be done in the matter."—[Official Report, Standing Committee C, 16th March, 1948; c. 6–7.]
That was the second definite undertaking given by the responsible Minister. To our astonishment and sorrow, however, we did not see anything at all On the Order Paper which had been put down by the Minister of Education for this stage of the Bill. It looks very much like a breach of faith. I am not accusing my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, or my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, although he gave us two definite assurances. I am quite aware that both my right hon. Friends, like the assassins whose daggers stabbed Caesar, are honourable men. I rather suspect that they have done their best behind the scenes to give effect to the assurances which were made on two different occasions, and that there is some sinister influence, unknown to me and my hon. Friends, at work in this matter.
2.15 p.m.
We are entitled to have an explanation. We are entitled to know why teachers have been singled out for special penalisation. The rights of civil servants have been fully guarded. The Bill states that if a man has passed the examination for a Civil Service appointment before taking up National Service his period of National Service will be counted for pensionable purposes. Further, most local Government employees are safeguarded by the Bill, because they enter such employment


at the age of 16, and come into contributory service before they go into National Service thereby satisfying the conditions laid down in Clause 1.
I and my hon. Friends, and teachers throughout the country, expect an explanation of the Government's action. There is nothing invidious in making this concession to teachers. It does not affect other bodies of men and women in the country. The ordinary industrial worker does not have to serve 40 years as a teacher does before he enjoys his full pension. He will enjoy it at the age of 65 if he has 10 years' contributions on his insurance card. I realise that it is now too late for anything to be done—

Mr. Assheton: Mr. Assheton indicated dissent.

Mr. Morley: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will help us to secure a concession. I have been given to understand hat a Bill to consolidate the various Teachers' Superannuation Acts will be introduced early next Session. If the Minister cannot do anything now I hope he will do something then to make a reasonable concession to what I think is a reasonable demand.
Finally, I would point out that it may not be possible even for a man who has done his year's National Service, and who serves as a teacher until he is 61, 62 or 63, to complete his 40 years' service, because there are some local authorities, especially in South Wales, which have passed by-laws making the retirement of teachers compulsory at the age of 60. This means that no teacher performing his year's National Service could ever draw his full pension. I hope the Government will make a concession to what, I submit, is a very reasonable demand.

Mr. G. Thomas: The extent of the anxiety of my hon. Friends and I about the injustice to teachers will have been measured by the House in noticing the alacrity with which we jumped at the offer of support from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton). "Any port in a storm" is an old saying which we in South Wales, as well as others, accept. I do not want the right hon. Gentleman to think that I regard him as any port, but any support he can give on this issue will be very welcome.
The Government Front Bench must be feeling very uncomfortable on this issue. My hon. Friend the Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) was very mild in the observations he put forward, and in saying that the Government's action was almost a breach of faith. I notice that there is no one from the Ministry of Education sitting on the Front Bench when this matter of first importance to the teacher is being discussed.

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): May I say, in justice to the Minister, that he is very sorry to be unable to be here? He had a very important and long-standing engagement in the provinces, and, unfortunately, at the last minute, his Parliamentary Secretary was taken ill. I can assure my hon. Friend that no discourtesy is intended by the Minister or his Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. Thomas: I can only trust that he is in South Wales. Those teachers who are involved in this injustice will lose at least £600 during the course of their professional career as a result of the withholding of the recognition which is being given to people in other walks of life. Civil servants can take their qualifying examination before they go. Local government officers, as my hon. Friend the Member for West Woolwich (Mr. Berry) has shown, are well pleased with what was done under the Bill. The police and everybody appear to be well catered for, and justice is meted out with regard to superannuation, except in this instance of the young men coming into the teaching profession. We are penalising the young man for being physically fit. If he had flat feet, or poor sight, or poor hearing he could receive f600 additional money. He could go to college and get into school and draw the full pension; but because he is a fit young man and gives a year of his life to the Armed Services, we say that he shall suffer all the way through his professional career.
There is another important point at stake. In promotion to headship in the teaching profession, the length of service in schools is an issue which is always taken into consideration; and it may well be that there will be members of the teaching profession held back and suffering even further loss due to the injustice which is implicit in this legislation. My


right hon. Friend the Minister of Education has already proved that he is progressive in his approach to the realm of education. We realise that. In the Second Reading of this Bill he told the House that he agreed with the observations which my hon. Friend had made except one, and the only one with which he disagreed was the alternative suggestion put forward by my hon. Friend as to the way in which this injustice could be put right. Having had from the Government an admission that there is an injustice—that this thing is wrong—surely, we will not have any Minister standing at the Treasury Box today, trying to tell us that, although it is wrong, nothing can be done. We have been sweetly reasonable in our approach to the Government on this question, but apparently that is the wrong line to take with our masters. I see the Financial Secretary looking at me very severely, but he will be aware that the teaching profession feel that once the Government are aware of this injustice, they ought to be prepared to take steps to remove it.
We have embarked on a recruiting campaign for the teaching profession, and we hope to get some of the finest quality into the profession. I am pleased to see that there is already an infusion of the very best type of young man in the profession—but what an advertisement this will be. If they want a square deal they had better join another profession. They had better go into the Civil Service, or into local government, or anything except teaching. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury will tell us that the expression of opinion put forward by the Minister of Education will be given effect, and that when he said on the Committee stage that further consideration would be given before the Report stage, and he promised on the Second Reading that he would examine this injustice to see if it could be removed, he was not merely giving us sweet words which mean exactly nothing. I hope that the Minister will be prepared to tell us that a further Amendment will be submitted.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: One of the main objects of Clause i is to permit civil servants, local authority employees and teachers to count for superannuation pur-

poses any period of compulsory military service which interrupts their civil duties. When we discussed this on Second Reading, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education, in response to appeals made to him by hon. Members on this side of the House, undertook to see whether it was possible to include teachers who, although they had not begun their service as teachers, had started their training to become teachers. I can tell the House that he has done his best to see whether something can be done to meet the point of view which hon. Members put forward then, as now, with such grace and felicity.
It has been quite impossible, for reasons which I will give in a few minutes, for my right hon. Friend to do anything within the four quarters of this Bill. The hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) suggested that it might be possible for his wishes to be implemented in some Measure which might be introduced next Session. It is possible that something of the sort may be done, but I am sorry to say that it is quite out of the question for it to be done today.
I would like to add that the Bill proposed for next Session cannot be a consolidating Bill, because a consolidating Bill cannot alter the law but only consolidate it. It will have to be another kind of Measure and we have it in mind to make certain provisions which, in our view, will improve the Superannuation Acts now on the Statute Book. I will not say more about it now. We shall have to consider it next Session if and when such a Bill is introduced, as it is my earnest hope that it will be. I can assure my hon. Friend that one of the last things my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education said to me was that he would like me to assure those who raised this matter in the House that he would be very happy to see what could be done along the lines requested, if that proves possible, in another amending Measure next Session.
My hon. Friend the Member for Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas) said that teachers have been singled out for special penal treatment. That it not true. If we had a provision for teachers on the lines suggested by my hon. Friends the Members for Central Cardiff and Southampton, it would be


singling them out. What Clause 1 does is to allow civil servants and others to count towards superannuation any period which interrupts their service in the Civil Service or in local government employment or as teachers.

2.30 p.m.

Mr. G. Thomas: I know my right hon. Friend is trying to be just, and that he wants to consider every point of view, but is it not true that a civil servant or a local government officer will already have entered into employment?

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I was coming to that. Obviously, some will take advantage of this provision; otherwise, there will be no point in putting it into the Bill. As I understood my hon. Friend's remarks, they tended to suggest that all civil servants and local government employees could take advantage of Clause r, and that the only people left out were the teachers. If I misunderstood or if I am doing him an injustice, I am sure he will say so; but I understood that that was the purport of his remarks, and that for that reason he thought some special arrangement should be made so that teachers would be placed in the same position as civil servants and local government officials.
Only a certain number of civil servants can take advantage of Clause 1. They are those who come into the Service at a fairly early age—16, 17 or 18. If they have started their service in the Civil Service before they are called up at 18 years of age, they can take advantage of this Clause and they can count towards their pension the service they have to give in the Armed Forces. There are, however, large numbers of people who enter the Civil Service not at the age of 16, 17 or 18, but at the age of 22, 23, 24, and even now in certain technical and professional grades at as high an age as 35 or 40. That has been one of our difficulties. Practically the whole of the administrative class will obviously come in at a later stage, and will be quite unable to take advantage of this Clause. Therefore, they are exactly in the same position as the teachers whose cause has been pleaded so well this afternoon.
If we included teachers here and gave them special treatment, we should be doing for them what, unfortunately, at

the moment we are unable to do for other equally deserving classes. It has been suggested that the teachers who miss their service cannot count the extra year for pension. They have not lost it for good, although they have lost it at this end of their service. There is no reason why teachers should not be willing to continue for another year if they desire to make up that year and include it towards their superannuation. They retire at the age of 60, and nowadays 60 is looked upon as relatively young. My experience has been that even men of 65 feel that they have a grievance when they are asked to retire. Therefore, we cannot see any real grievance if a teacher, who is now able to retire at 60, is asked to continue for another year if he wants to, so as to make up this extra year towards his pension.

Mr. G. Thomas: I am sorry to interrupt again, but there are authorities who do not allow a teacher to continue his service beyond the age of 60. Perhaps my right hon. Friend would consult with the Minister of Education with a view to approaching those authorities.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Oh, yes. We have got heaps of time. This, will not begin to take effect for about 40 years. The people who will suffer because they spent a year in the Armed Forces now or in the years immediately ahead will not begin to feel it—if they ever do—in the way suggested by my two hon. Friends for another 30 or 40 years. It is quite possible that a great deal may have happened between now and then.
I think I have dealt with most of the points that have been raised, and answered the charge that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Education has in some way broken a promise. If my two hon. Friends will re-read the Debates which took place in this House on the Second Reading and upstairs when we dealt with the Committee stage, they will see that my right hon. Friend is much too old a bird to have made a promise of that sort. He certainly indicated that he would look into this matter and see what he could do to meet the point of view put forward. I can say on his behalf—because I happen to know; I was in on these discussions—that he tried very hard to implement the promise that he made, namely that he would see what


could be done and that, if something were possible, he would do it. He certainly got that point of view ventilated in the proper quarters, and he did his best to see whether some provision to meet it could be inserted in the Bill.
I hope my two hon. Friends will realise that it is impossible, without creating anomalies, to insert the provision which they suggest. However, I hope that another superannuation Measure will be brought forward next Session or the Session after, and we will bear this matter in mind. If it is possible to do something for teachers and others in the Civil Service and local government service who are in a like position, we shall do our best to do it. That being so, I hope my hon. Friend will be willing to withdraw his Amendment.

Mr. Assheton: I am naturally sorry that the Financial Secretary has not been able to see his way to meet this difficulty which has been pointed out to us. When it was raised on the Second Reading, I expressed sympathy with the position in which the teachers had been put, as would be expected of a representative of the party which has done more for education than any other party.

Mr. G. Thomas: That is a tall one.

Mr. Assheton: It is not a tall one at all. If the hon. Gentleman cares to look at the history of education—

Mr. John R. Thomas: Public school or elementary?

Mr. Assheton: —and the various laws which have been passed in this House during the last zoo years, he, will find that the Conservative Party's contributions have been absolutely outstanding. I was interested to hear the assertion of the hon. Member for Southampton (Mr. Morley) that there had been a breach of faith. He was very shocked at that. He said he could not believe that the Financial Secretary or the Minister of Education could be guilty of a breach of faith, and, knowing them both so well, of course I, too, would find that very difficult to believe. He suggested that there must be some sinister influence somewhere. Can that mean that there is in the Cabinet some Minister less honourable than these two right hon. Gentlemen? It is a very

dangerous suggestion for Members of the party opposite to put forward.

Mr. Morley: I meant that there might be in the Cabinet some Minister who himself personally did not give a pledge as the Minister of Education did, but who, not understanding the situation, took an entirely wrong attitude, and that his influence unfortunately prevailed.

Mr. Assheton: I understand that. The point about pledges is that when Ministers make them, those pledges, of course, are binding upon the Cabinet of which they are members, unless they resign from the Cabinet and thus free their colleagues from any obligations. I am not suggesting that there was a breach of faith in this case, but I would say to the hon. Member for Southampton that a breach of faith on the part of this Government would not surprise me, of course. It may have been the fate of some hon. Members to have listened to Debates which have taken place in this House on another matter, in which I have been personally deeply concerned, and on a number of occasions the suggestion has been made that a breach of faith has been committed. To those of us on this side of the House it does not come as so great a shock as it does to the hon. Members for Southampton and Central Cardiff (Mr. G. Thomas), who perhaps did not take part in the Debate on that other matter.
When we come to the merits of the matter I would say that I listened very attentively to the case which the Financial Secretary put forward. I was not quite convinced by it. He said that he could not do anything now but that he hoped something might be done next year. If something is to be done to get over the difficulty—which the right hon. Gentleman said could not be gone over—why cannot it be done now? If the difficulty is insuperable, he will not be able to get over it next year. Why should we not have the benefit of the Financial Secretary's knowledge now, if there is a way of getting over it? Let the remedy be applied in another place, where Amendments can be moved to make the Bill more acceptable to this House.
When the hon. Member for Southampton says that there is no more time for change, I would remind him that there is another place where he has friends. If


he used his influence he might be able to find some means of putting this injustice right. The Financial Secretary told the House a story that has often been told us before, which was that if we put the injustice right it will be rather hard on somebody else whose grievances will not have been put right. At least, there will be fewer injustices, and I am sure that none of those whose injustices had not been remedied will complain of the fact that somebody else's grievance has been put right. There is time for hon. Members who are interested in this matter to take some action to get this matter ventilated in another place.
We were told by the Financial Secretary that the consequences of the Bill will not be felt for 30 or 40 years. Certainly, there is time to make changes. I cannot pretend that the matter is desperately urgent this afternoon. For that reason, it may be that hon. Members opposite might withdraw their Amendment. I do not know whether they will, but whether they do so or not, they have 30 or 40 years of work ahead of them. They must make the remedying of these grievances their great Parliamentary duty. They must see that this injustice is remedied. I have a feeling that they will be able to get this matter put right somehow or other in that time, if it is not beyond human ingenuity to find a way. Both the hon. Member for Southampton and the hon. Member for Central Cardiff are persevering people with great influence and they may be able, by the end of 30 or 40 years, to put this matter right.

Mr. Berry: I wonder whether the right hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton), when he was suggesting that some of my hon. Friends should use their influence with their friends in another place, was really giving one of those subtle signals that used to be given in Balfourian times by way of warning to his own friends in another place. Friendly as I am to teachers, I think the offer held out by the Financial Secretary that the matter will be considered with other germane matters when legislation is next considered, was quite reasonable. I know the pertinacity of my Welsh friends. It has been said that Welshmen pray on their knees on Sunday, and on their neighbours for the rest of the week. I say that not by way of reflection upon any Member

of this House. I hope that the teachers who are adversely affected still receive consideration, and that measures will be devised by those who advise my right hon. Friend the Financial Secretary to meet the undoubted hardships which have been pointed out by my two hon. Friends who have supported the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

CLAUSE 3.—(Former employees of Approved Societies, etc., becoming civil servants.)

2.45 P.m.

Mr. Assheton: I beg to move, in page 7, to leave out lines 42 to 44.
I wonder whether it might be convenient to the House if we discussed with this Amendment the next Amendment on the Paper, in my name, in page 7, line 44, at the end, to insert:
(4) Where provision is made by any such rules for the amendment, repeal or revocation of any existing pension scheme or of any statutory provisions relating thereto or any trust deed, rules or other instrument made for the purposes thereof, or for the transfer or extinguishment of any liability under any pension scheme or for the transfer or winding up of any pension fund held for the purposes of any such scheme, the regulations shall be so framed as to secure that persons having pension right under the scheme, whether such persons as are mentioned in Subsection (1) of this Section or not, are not placed in any worse position by reason of the amendment, repeal, revocation, transfer, extinguishment or winding up.
(5) Rules made under this Section shall not be invalid by reason that in fact they do not secure that persons having pension rights are not placed in any worse position by reason of any such amendment, repeal, revocation, transfer, extinguishment or winding up as is mentioned in the last preceding Subsection, but if the Minister is satisfied or it is determined as hereinafter mentioned that any such rules have failed to secure that result, the Minister shall as soon as may be make the necessary amending rules.
Any dispute arising between the Minister and any person as to whether or not the said result has been secured by any rules made under this Section shall be referred to a referee or board of referees appointed by the Minister of Labour and National Service after consultation with the Lord Chancellor or, where the proceedings are to be held in Scotland, after consultation with the Secretary of State, for his or their determination thereon.
The point raised is important. When the Transport Bill was going through its Committee stage, I took a considerable part in it. Although I failed entirely to obtain justice for the shareholders, I did have a certain amount of success in obtaining justice for the staff. We moved


a great many Amendments, with the result that provision was made in that Act, and I believe there are similar provisions in the Coal Nationalisation Act—in respect of which I did not take such an active a part—to safeguard the position of the staff in their terms of employment and pensions. The object of these Amendments is to safeguard the position of those who are to work under the new Act which is to come into force in July.
I believe that a number of people employed by the industrial assurance and friendly societies will be affected by the Act and that their occupation or employment will be changed when the Act comes into force. I felt that it was desirable to try to give effect to my anxieties in this matter. As I read the Bill—I may be wrong and I want Ministers to correct me if I am—there is no protection in it such as is given by Section 98 of the Transport Act. It is desirable that protection should be given and that men should not be prejudiced by the change in their employers which is to take place in July.
I cannot help thinking that the Government may have overlooked this matter. If they have not, I suggest that they have behaved rather badly in not putting safeguards of this kind into the Bill. I understand that negotiations have been going on between the Government and representatives of the industrial and friendly societies. I hope to hear that as a result of those negotiations some satisfactory solution has been come to. Until I can hear from the lips of Ministers on the Front Bench what is intended, I do not know whether or not I need press this Amendment to a Division. I should, therefore, like to give way and hear what the Government have to say.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of National Insurance (Mr. Steele): The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton) used a phrase which is the keynote of the reasons why we have not adopted the words in the Transport Act. He said that the occupation of the persons employed by the approved societies would be changed, and it is upon that keynote that I want to speak. The Transport Act and the other Acts deal with public bodies and the occupation of the staffs does not in itself change. For example, a stationmaster continues to be a station-

master—and I hope a good stationmaster—under nationalisation. There is no change in his occupation. There are few superannuation schemes in the public bodies concerned and it is much better to continue those schemes as they are at present. No doubt in future many of those schemes will be merged but there will be time and opportunity for that to be done.
The position of the staffs of the approved societies is completely different. Here we have a complete change of function. The jobs of the staffs of the approved societies more or less disappear. They will then come over to the Civil Service, and we want to do here what we have done before in the matter of salaries and conditions on the transfer of staffs. The principle is that we should assimilate the salaries of the staff to the Civil Service scales so that we shall not have people with one kind of salary working beside another civil servant with another salary. The advice given to us by the Committee set up by the Minister has been that there should be a levelling up of all the inequalities of salary and so on that have existed in the approved society world.
The advice of the Advisory Committee in relation to superannuation has been somewhat similar—that in the wide variety of superannuation schemes there should be a levelling up and to arrive at this levelling up, there should be a merger of the Civil Service superannuation schemes. In effect, this has been accepted with gratitude by those concerned. In the negotiations there have been certain minor criticisms which can be dealt with in those negotiations, but satisfaction has been shown; and in point of fact, acceptance of the right hon. Gentleman's Amendment would actually prevent the kind of merger which is visualised from taking place. It would therefore mean that the staffs of the approved societies would probably require to continue their old schemes, and 80 per cent. of them would be worse off than under the proposals in this Clause. The negotiations to which the right hon. Gentleman referred were conducted in a very happy atmosphere, and satisfaction was expressed by the people concerned and I do not think there will be any difficulty. I trust that with that explanation the right hon. Gentleman will now withdraw his Amendment.

Commander Galbraith: We are not altogether satisfied with what the hon. Gentleman has said. He has pointed out that there is to be a complete change of occupation for the members of approved societies, but that is not the point which concerns us most. We feel that justice should be done to everyone in so far as that is possible. The hon. Gentleman talked of a levelling up, but there will also be a levelling down in respect of about 20 per cent. We do not see why that should be so. If people have been contributing to some superannuation scheme, ought they not to receive the benefits to which they are entitled under that scheme? The merger about which the hon. Gentleman spoke seems to indicate that they will not receive the benefits to which they are entitled.
My right hon. Friend is particularly anxious that people should not be worse off. Surely justice is not done to people who have been paying a higher rate of contribution if their scheme is now merged and they receive smaller benefits than they would otherwise have done? I should have thought that it would have been possible for the Government to find ways and means of seeing that those people get the full benefits for which they have contributed. Maybe there is some other way of doing it, but I see no reference to it in the Bill. People should not be worse off under the national service than they have been in the past, and we should like to be satisfied about that. My right hon. Friend does not propose to divide the House on this, but we feel that the Government should pay further attention to the matter.

3.0 p.m.

Mr. Steele: If I may speak again by leave of the House, when my right hon. Friend introduced the last Clause he indicated that this was a highly technical matter but that there were words in his Clause which had a very simple explanation. In moving this Amendment the right hon. Gentleman rather sought to get an assurance on a particular matter and I did not direct myself to all the technicalities of the provisions in this Clause.
May I assure the right hon. Gentleman opposite that the 20 per cent. whom I did not mention will not necessarily be levelled down. What I did try to indi-

cate was that 80 per cent. would be better off. That was a general statement, so far as that matter is concerned, but the proposals, in effect, mean that there will be a merger of the old funds and the Civil Service fund. On the question of the 120-odd superannuation funds which at present exist—and many members of approved societies are not members of any superannuation fund at all—when I talked about levelling up one with another, I meant to say that many of these people who are not members of superannuation funds will come into the Civil Service and will get certain accrued rights in the Civil Service fund because of their years of service in approved society work, and there will be a general levelling up over the whole body of the staff coming into the Civil Service.
As to people not being worse off, here we come to the technicalities of the matter again. In the 120 superannuation schemes which exist at present, there are wide and varied benefits, and it would be impossible to say that no one might be worse off. What we are saying, in effect, is that, being merged into the Civil Service scheme, they will be getting accrued rights from their old society, and will, in the main, be better off in the Civil Service scheme. To protect the rights of individuals, however, we intend that the accrued rights which the person has under his old approved society superannuation scheme will be frozen at the date of transfer, so that these accrued rights which he has at that time will be there for him, and, in fact, he will then go on in the Civil Service earning new rights under the Civil Service pension scheme. Should he leave the Civil Service within a short period of years, he will then have an option, as he may elect to have the old rights under the old scheme or accept—what might be better—the new rights which he has earned by his service in the Civil Service. The whole problem is teeming with technicalities, and that is why the Minister of National Insurance set up an advisory committee, on which there are 14 members from the approved society world and 14 from the trade union world. They have now issued an interim statement to the Minister on this question, and consultations are now taking place with the trustees and are proving very satisfactory indeed. On the particular point raised by the right hon. Gentleman I did indicate


that these negotiations had been completed satisfactorily, and, with that further explanation, I hope he will withdraw his Amendment.

Mr. Assheton: In view of the assurances given by the hon. Gentleman, the express undertaking that I gather he has given that nobody is to be deprived of any of his rights and the fact that there will be further opportunities for this matter to be discussed in another place, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 6.—(Special provisions as to local government superannuation schemes during periods of emergency.)

Mr. Berry: I beg to move, in page 11, line 34, to leave out from "shorter," to the end of line 35.
I would remind the House that Clause 6 was inserted during the Committee stage of this Bill with the object of preserving the accrued pension rights of any members of local authority staffs who lost their employment as a result of action taken by his employers, at the instigation of the Minister of Health, to reduce capital expenditure. The intention of the Clause is to allow such an employee who leaves the authority's service to reckon his earlier period of service in full for pension purposes. At the beginning of today's proceedings Subsection (3) of Clause 6 defined the period as:
a period of five years from the date of cessation of employment; or a period ending twelve months after the expiration of the period of emergency, … or such longer period as the Minister of Health may, in any particular case, allow.
I should like to pay tribute to those responsible for the arrangement of the proceedings today. One Amendment has been moved and has deleted the second of the foregoing definitions. There still remains, however, the power to enable the Minister to extend the period. I suggest that we should engage in an act of faith, because to leave in this power would indicate that in the opinion of the Government a period of emergency under which the local government employees have lost their local government posts is likely to last longer than five years. That is not my opinion, nor do I think it is the opinion of the Government, but the fact that it is left in might give rise for doubting Thomases to

suggest that the Government had that opinion.
The effect of my Amendment would be to leave the period as five years so that the definition would end with the words "cessation of employment "in line 32. I hope that those responsible for the Bill will see their way clear to adopt this Amendment.

Mr. Rogers: I beg to second the Amendment.

Mr. J. Edwards: My hon. Friend will agree that there is no difference of opinion between us on the broad intentions of the Clause. Nobody has said there is anything wrong in the Clause in a general kind of way. What we have to settle is whether we should remove the discretion which the last part of the Subsection gives to the Minister of Health. One does not need to take any pessimistic or optimistic view about the likely period, as my hon. Friend suggested merely on what is on this Bill. There is a lot to be said for having this discretion. I know that discretion is often difficult to exercise and that there are people—although my hon. Friend is not one of them—who are suspicious of the exercising of discretion by Ministers. I will quote the case of an example which might arise, however, and see whether my hon. Friend will agree with me, that there is a case for the exercising of discretion.
There might be an employee possibly in his own borough, who had been displaced because of nationals retrenchments. The man might do his best to get another job and after a time does, in fact, manage to get a job. He gets it, however, in accordance with a contract that ties him for a certain period. Let us suppose that the contract expires when the man has served five years and one month after he has ceased his employment with the local authority. If such a case were to arise in Woolwich, my hon. Friend would be the first person to come and see whether we could let that very difficult case go through.
We do not intend that this power shall be used except in the most difficult and exceptional cases, but we should like to have the room in which to move in case we should ever meet the genuinely hard case where it would be everybody's wish to do the right thing. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend will let us


retain this provision without the necessity of the House having to divide.

Mr. Berry: On the undertaking of the Parliamentary Secretary that this power will be used only for very hard cases, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.

Orders of the Day — DISABLED EX-SERVICE MEN (MOTOR CARS)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Snow.]

3.10 p.m.

Mr. William Shepherd: This afternoon I desire to raise the question of the supply of cars for disabled ex-Service men, because this is an issue which is giving rise to a good deal of concern. Many hon. Members are worried about what is happening and do not, in fact, know what is happening. Therefore, I will endeavour this afternoon to get from the Minister when he appears—I know he was here, because I was speaking to him a short time ago—some statement on th2 present position and also to see whether we cannot get a more satisfactory arrangement than the present one, which is certainly not getting us very far.
I raise this question because I read in the Press only a few days ago that it will take eight years to fill all the orders for cars placed in the last few months. To the disabled ex-Service men, whose livelihood depends on getting a motor car, to read that it is going to take eight years to get current orders filled is disconcerting. I hope to get from the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply some more reassuring statement than has appeared in the Press.
It is generally agreed by both sides of the House that many of the arrangements made for ex-Service men are very much better after this war than they were after the 1914–18 war, but I believe that on this question of cars for disabled men the country has not maintained the standard it has set in other directions. So far, there have been supplied to disabled ex-Service men only 2,800 cars. I am

advised by the British Legion that as many as 50,000 applications have, in fact, been made. Hon. Members on both sides of the House will have received letters from many of their constituents telling most pathetic stories of the difficulties of ex-Service men through failure to get motor cars. Therefore, I feel that the provision of only 2,800 cars in nearly three years is wholly inadequate, in view of the obvious demands. Last year, I got from the Ministry of Supply information on the supply of cars from Ministry of Supply dumps to people other than ex-Service men, and the total was over 300 motorcars for Government Departments. That is quite wrong. It is quite improper that, while we have these men who so gallantly served their country waiting for cars which are indispensable to them in resuming civilian life, these 300 cars should be supplied to non-serving people. Many ex-Service men could have started their life afresh and have been made happy if they had been supplied with cars.
Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary will tell us how many cars have been sold to the public from Ministry of Supply dumps. I am told that all these cars are not suitable. Of course, all are not, but I am convinced that if a real effort were made by the Minister of Supply and the Minister of Transport, more of these cars could have been made suitable for ex-Service men. I am convinced that the British Legion, in co-operation with the motor car manufacturers, would be only too pleased to make a special effort to make 5,000 or 6,000 of these cars suitable for ex-Service men. I am convinced it has not been 'done because of the lack of interest and drive on the part of the Minister of Transport and the Minister of Supply. It is one of those unfortunate circumstances where two or three Ministers are involved, and each one passes the baby on to the other, with the result that, generally speaking, little or nothing is done.
I want to know what is the present position. We are told that the list has been closed since November, 1946. How many men are now waiting for motor cars whose application has been acknowledged as received? What is to happen to those who at the present time are unable to get on the list? What provision is being made for them? I must stress again that this


demand for motor cars for ex-Service men arises not from a question of giving them some sort of advantage over the rest of the community. It is a means by which they can be put on a level with the rest of the community, because they have suffered a disability through service to the country, and we are asking that they should have the means by which their livelihood can be resumed.
I had a letter from an ex-Service man this morning—a bomber pilot in the R.A.F.—who said he had to give up his job only three weeks ago because his motor car had let him down and he could not carry on without it. That is the answer to the question—why do not ex-Service men buy secondhand cars? Secondhand cars are such a price that most ex-Service men cannot afford to buy them. The price is such that only the black marketeer and the more opulent section of the community can afford to pay it. Of course, there is also the great anxiety to a man who has bought a secondhand car which is not reliable., When I started running motor cars, I paid as little as 30s. for them, and I know what terrible strain was placed on a person with a 30s. motor car in those days. Today, I think, a £300 motor car has about the equivalent in anxiety value of the 30s. car with which I first started motoring. I do not think it is fair to say that we expect ex-Service men to buy secondhand motor cars at the present level of prices.
Apart from the cars which are stuck in Germany and the future of which no one can foretell—they have probably eaten themselves a few feet deeper into the ground since I saw them a few weeks ago—there are probably very few cars left in Ministry of Supply dumps. What are we to do for these thousands of ex-Service men who have no cars and whose livelihood, and resumption of life in the ordinary way, depends on obtaining them? The answer is that there must be some priority for ex-Service men getting new cars. For 18 months we have been thinking that the supply position in new cars would improve, but in reality the supply position is getting worse, and we have to face the fact that unless we give priority for new cars to ex-Service men, many will never obtain them. I would like also to suggest—and this is outside the scope of this Debate—that the Parlia-

mentary Secretary should get in touch with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and see that these ex-Service men do not have to pay Purchase Tax on new cars, because that is an unjust imposition on men who have served the country well and who now want to resume their ordinary lives. It is the duty of the State to see that these men have a reasonable chance in life after the sacrifices they have made.
I want to refer to just one other thing, and that is the cars supplied by the Ministry of Pensions, with which no doubt the Ministry of Supply has some connection, because the Ministry of Supply spreads in every direction and has a finger in most pies. The vehicle supplied at the present time, for which specifications have been sent out, is wholly unsatisfactory to most ex-Service men. It is a three-wheeled car and, as everybody knows who has driven three-wheeled cars in earlier life, it is a most dangerous thing to put on the road, particularly in bad weather and particularly on tram lines. In addition, it has no protection in winter. A disabled man who is provided by the Ministry of Pensions with a car in which to go to his work must have a vehicle which is reasonably safe and which will protect him in all weathers. It is absolute nonsense, in the year 1948, for the Ministry of Pensions to send out specifications for a three-wheeled motor car without protection. It is perfectly easy to supply a four-wheeled vehicle. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will approach the Minister of Pensions to see that a suitable vehicle, one that will fulfil the needs of the ex-Service man, is produced in the place of this three-wheeled chair which is at present supplied.
I feel very strongly that far too little has been done for the ex-Service man in this matter of the provision of cars. It is very easy for people in Government Departments—men who suffer, in the main, no disability—to say, "We have done all we can." They have not done as much as they could. With more energy and more drive, they could have done much more for ex-Service men in this direction. It is true that the provision of cars today will mean some sort of sacrifice. They will have to come out of the allocation for pleasure purposes to people in this country. Perhaps, they will have to come out of the export allocation. However, important as is the ex-


port drive to our national existence, it is no less essential that we fulfil our moral obligations to men who have served their country so well. The country ought to be pleased and proud to make sacrifices, if necessary, to see that these men get a fair chance in life.

3.22 p.m.

Sir Ian Fraser: I think the House must express its gratitude to my hon. Friend the Member for Bucklow (Mr. W. Shepherd) for raising this subject, and for the eloquent way he has brought forward his plea. The British Legion, and other organisations for ex-Service men with which I am in touch, are grateful to him, and they will be grateful to the House if it will listen to his plea, and to the Ministry if it will take some action upon it. Let me put before the House some reasons why a preference should be given to these ex-Service men. First, they have been disabled in the service of the country and our cause, in a way which, in spite of the egalitarian doctrine which is growing up and pervading so many fields, nevertheless, still appeals to our hearts. It is not enough to say that all served the country equally in war. My contention is that those who go out and face shot and shell, on the battlefield or in the air or at sea, have a particular claim on the consideration and generosity of the nation and of the Government.
However, there is another reason. The very fact that they have been away in Burma or abroad somewhere has made it less easy for them to secure whatever is available at home. That is true of housing. It is also true of motor cars. Those at home, however important their job, however risky, at least could look around to find a car, could take advantage of some offer which came their way, or could get on a waiting list of dealers, with a high place upon it. Those who were away had not those opportunities. So the giving of a preference, if it is not to be conceded by the Government on the first ground I put forward—consideration of the men who fought abroad—can still be acceded to on the second ground, which is to make conditions fair for the men who have been away.
Only the other day I wrote to the Minister of Supply asking him if he could obtain 20 motor cars during this year, 10

in the first half of the year and 10 in the second half. I should like to take a minute to tell the House for whom the cars are needed, and so to illustrate my claim that these men for whom I am asking did not have the same chance as those who stayed at home of getting their names on to waiting lists. These men are 20 young fellows blinded in this second world war, and a number of them have been trained to be physiotherapists by two or three years training. When they were blinded two or three years ago, they were men of small means who could not think of affording a motor car, much less of putting down their names on a waiting list. They went to St. Dunstan's starting from humble beginnings and ending as thoroughly trained professional men, now able to go out in competition with all the world to undertake physiotherapy practices. They are now going out of St. Dunstan's month by month to take their places, and a practice which is like that of a doctor requires a small car maybe an eight horsepower or a 10 horsepower Morris, Ford or Austin, but they cannot get cars.
I do not say that the blinded are the only group who should have them. There are the limbless, there are the paraplegic, and plenty of others, but these come under my notice. The provision of a car is a moral duty as well as a necessity, not only to them, but to the community they will serve with their healing art. They ought to be given a preference for whatever small cars remain under the control of the Ministry of Supply and, if they are exhausted, then for new cars. As has been said, the British Legion has lists of thousands of disabled men who want cars. If they want a small car for pleasure, ought they not to have their turn?—much more so if they want it for business. It is in the nation's interest that disabled men should be put to work so that they may contribute towards the solution of our problems and they themselves be helped.
One word in support of what my hon. Friend said in his concluding remarks about the three-wheeled car, and other vehicles designed specially for the disabled. I have seen these three-wheeled cars. I was the other day at Chaseley in Eastbourne, a home where paraplegic men—that is, men whose spines have been damaged—live and try, as well as they may, to lead independent or partially


independent existences, trying to get jobs. They can go out in these little three-wheeled vehicles, but there is little protection from the weather, bad springing, no sorbo seat—utterly inadequate vehicles for men suffering terrible disability. It would be infinitely better to give them an eight horsepower Morris, or a Ford, mass-produced, a little more expensive perhaps, but far more suitable and convenient. There are difficulties. An eight horsepower Morris is not an invalid chair, even if an invalid sits in it. To be an invalid chair the vehicle has to be of an ancient pattern and of a peculiar shape, which nobody would use if he were not an invalid. Unless one can define the invalid chair as being something nobody else would use, then Purchase Tax has to be paid.
We want a little imagination in the Treasury and in the Ministry of Pensions and in the Ministry of Supply. Let us see what kind of car is best for these chaps. Obviously it is the small standard four-wheeled car, altered to be controlled by hand if the man has no legs; altered, as it can well be to suit his disability. It is more weather proof, more comfortable, and if it can be used by his wife, why not? She has a tough job looking after him anyway. We are too mean in this matter and say that it will not do for his wife to use it because Purchase Tax has not been paid. Why on earth should she not?
Therefore we want to supply the right vehicle, we want the Treasury to use its imagination and allow the Purchase Tax to come off if the vehicle is primarily being used by the disabled man, instead of trying to define it as an invalid chair. I hope the Government will do something to meet this plea that has been made. I can assure them that the British Legion and other ex-Service organisations will be grateful if they will.

3.30 p.m.

Mr. Blackburn: The hon. Member for Lansdale (Sir I. Fraser) is held in great respect in this country, and he has done a great service for ex-Service men. I wish to support the plea which he and his hon. Friends are making, but I hope that the remarks I am going to make will be considered by them as a serious contribution to this subject. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how they defend the prin-

ciple of the allocation of cars in accordance with need, and not the allocation of houses in accordance with need. It seems to me utterly insane that we should have heard today this plea that disabled ex-Service men should have priority for cars, and that the Opposition should not say that they stand for priority for ex-Service men in the case of houses.

Sir I. Fraser: I mentioned houses in my speech.

Mr. Blackburn: I have tried to be fair about this matter. I recommend the hon. Member to see that his views are accepted by the Conservative Party, because at the moment they are attacking the Minister of Health for insisting that houses shall be allocated in accordance with need.

Commander Galbraith: The hon. Member is absolutely wrong. If he is going to make remarks of that character, will he be good enough to quote chapter and verse? I have pleaded with the Minister of Health on many occasions that houses should be supplied in accordance with need, and that it should have nothing to do with income.

Mr. Blackburn: The principle which the Opposition have so far adopted in relation to houses is to set the people free—to set free private builders to build, and allocate houses. That is the policy of the Opposition, and I challenge hon. Members to deny it. The hon. and gallant Member for Pollok (Commander Galbraith) has challenged me, and I am now challenging him. The policy of the Conservative Party is that houses should be allocated by private enterprise, by private builders.

Sir I. Fraser: When Lord Woolton was Minister of Reconstruction, he gave instructions to local authorities that they were to get out schemes for giving priority to ex-Service men in housing. That was also the policy of the Coalition Government and of the Caretaker Government. It was not until the present Minister of Health came into office that this preference began to be denied; he did his best to do away with it.

Mr. Blackburn: With great respect, the hon. Member is not stating the truth about this. There is no Minister who has


discharged his Ministerial functions in a more responsible manner for the benefit of ex-Service men than the present Minister of Health. He has laid down exactly the same policy for houses which the hon. Member is advocating for cars. Because houses are in short supply, just as cars are in short supply, he has laid down that houses shall be allocated in accordance with need. That is the principle which any Government desiring to carry on the traditions of our country would have to follow, and that is the principle for which my right hon. Friend has been responsible. We are now having from the Opposition the allegation that we ought to do, in relation to cars, what we have done in relation to housing, which they thought was "lousey" anyway. It is a most extraordinary phenomenon. [HON. MEMBERS: "It is."] Many extraordinary phenomena occur in this House, but surely this is the most diverting of all.
I speak with some personal conviction on this subject, because it is the view of some Members I have some influence in relation to the allocation of cars by Austins. I am constantly approached by a large number of Members of Parliament to get cars either for them or their constituents, for one reason or another. [An HON. MEMBER: "Shame."] I do not say "Shame." I believe there is a great responsibility on private enterprise in this matter. In principle, I support the case which has been put forward today. It matters not to me who personally approaches me—whether it is a crypto-Communist or a crypto-Tory, of whom I disapprove even more—I would say that as he is a Member of this House, and has a great responsibility for the conduct of our affairs, he ought to be facilitated in his private affairs by having a car allocated to him. I say he deserves some priority in this matter, and, therefore, I have advanced certain claims.
Members opposite have said, "We denounce private enterprise because it is not allocating cars in accordance with the need of ex-Service men. I am proud to say, on behalf of private enterprise, that I applaud private enterprise in this matter, because I believe that on the whole it is trying to allocate cars in accordance with need. But in applauding private enterprise I also applaud the Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply. It is because we have a Labour Government, and a

Ministry of Supply under that Government, that private enterprise is acting so well. I see that my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mr. Skeffington-Lodge) is present. There was an occasion in this House when he suggested that I was particularly concerned for Austins. I would like to give this explicit assurance that I have no particular concern for anything other than the interest and well-being of my constituency and the working class. I hope he will accept that assurance.
It is vitally important that people should be satisfied that the allocation of cars is proceeding satisfactorily. That being so, I ask the Minister to leave this matter as it is, but to watch it. So long as private enterprise allocates cars for the benefit of ex-Service men we ought to be satisfied. If it does not, and if the Minister is satisfied that it is not doing so, I say to him, "Step in straight away, and see that cars go to the people who really need them."

3.40 p.m.

Mr. E. L. Gandar Dower: I have always thought that in an Adjournment Debate party feeling was very largely absent. Consequently, I must confess this afternoon to feeling a fraction of disappointment at what was said by the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn), for whom I have the greatest personal admiration. He often performs miracles in stimulating with his controversial and non-party views what poor intelligence I have. I think that this must be an occasion on which the exception proves the rule. Nor did I think that in this Adjournment Debate we were discussing the shortage of houses, any more than any other shortage. The title of the Debate specifically refers to the provision of cars for ex-Service men. I hope that the hon. Member will realise that these words which I address to him are more in sorrow than in anger.
I would like to support wholeheartedly, as I think the whole House does, the views put forward by the hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. Shepherd). I have perforce had a short holiday on the Continent—and I feel much better for it—but in Switzerland and in France I have seen literally hundreds of five horse power Fiats running about. I wonder whether the motor industry of this country is aware how great the demand can be for the tiny, perambulator motor car, and how especially well suited it is to the needs


of the ex-Service man. I would suggest that some attention should be paid to this matter, especially in view of the necessity of providing for this class of the community.
Some stress has been laid on the necessity of providing a vehicle of this class for those who are physically disabled. I would remind the House that a disabled ex-Service man can be an excellent commercial traveller, and to get about he needs this class of vehicle. Without wishing to introduce any 'parochial element into this discussion, I would point out that the need is greatest in the rural districts and in Scotland, where there are long distances to be covered, particularly in my own constituency of Caithness and Sutherland. I am interested to see that all Members agree with the necessity for the provision of this type of vehicle. I wholeheartedly support the view expressed on both sides of the House that we cannot afford to be parsimonious to the ex-Service man and to deny him a chance of earning a commercial living. We cannot force him to rely on Government charity when, if we give him mobility, he can earn his own keep and be proud of himself.

3.44 P.m.

Mr. Driberg: I was surprised to hear the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Gandar Dower) rebuking the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn) for introducing a note of controversy into an Adjournment Debate, because there is no rule or custom of this House that Adjournment Debates should not be controversial. I have no doubt that the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland will learn a little more about Adjournment Debates and the customs of this House when he has been here a few years longer—perhaps when the war with Japan is over.
I think that perhaps my hon. Friend's digression on housing took us a little further than he originally intended, but he is perfectly correct in his main contention about the Government's housing policy. The essence of that policy, and the essence of the practice of the local authorities in their allocation of points, under the general direction of the Ministry of Health, is that need should be the test. That does not always mean that the ex-Service man, as such, comes first on the waiting list, and I do not think

that any ex-Service man who has thought it out would necessarily claim that he should. If an ex-Service man and his wife with, perhaps, one child were competing on otherwise equal terms with, say, a farm-worker, reserved during the war, who was living with his wife and five children in insanitary conditions, I do not think that the ex-Service man would claim that he should be first. But war service is usually taken into consideration by local authorities in the awarding of points, together with other considerations.
Having said that, I must add that on this special question of the allocation of cars, I entirely agree with the hon. Member who has initiated this Debate. Whether or not there are administrative difficulties, I know that my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply, who is to reply, will not dodge the important arguments which have been put to him. I hope that so far as they do not concern him or his Department directly, he will take particular pains to pass on to the Treasury or the Ministry of Pensions, or whichever Department is concerned, the various points that have been raised. We are not concerned with ex-Service men in general but with disabled ex-Service men—a very particular case, claiming priority in every possible respect. I only intervene because, seeing the hon. Member's Adjournment subject on the list behind the Chair, I was naturally interested when, this morning, I happened to receive a letter on this very subject from an old friend of mine, a pilot in the war, who lost both his legs; he wrote to draw my attention to the case of the legless ex-Service man and his very special need for a car.
I would like to quote a brief passage from this letter. This man writes:
Nothing on earth makes me more sick at heart than to see men who have lost both their legs above the knee travelling around in a wheeled chair which affords no protection from the elements whatsoever, whilst their wives and perhaps children walk alongside of them. How infuriating it must be for them never to be able to take out their families in the ordinary way, and how tedious to have to plan every small detail of their daily lives and outings.
That is a point which, perhaps, has not occurred to those of us who are fortunate enough not to have suffered this terrible disability. Day after day it must be a tremendous additional burden to have to


plan every tiny detail of one's daily excursions.
The letter goes on:
The one thing which would, more than any amount of medical advice, restore one's ability to see life in perspective is a car. The Canadian Government is well aware of this, for it supplies its double-amputation veterans with cars.
I do not know whether my hon. Friend the Joint Parliamentary Secretary has any information on that point, but it may be a point worth looking into, and perhaps the appropriate Department might find out from the Canadian Government how they introduced this scheme and how they got over any administrative difficulties that there may be. If this is the case, why on earth should not the British Government do the same thing in this country?
The letter continues:
In this country not only is the disabled man not allowed any priority of purchase, but the Government still pursues its policy of making him pay Purchase Tax on his vehicle. The real value of a ranker's pension is relatively low here, and that additional 4100 may well mean, as indeed it does, that many men cannot possibly buy a car. The excuse, never a very plausible one, of administrative difficulties is no longer valid, as similar principles on a much more detailed scale were involved in the issue of tax-free tobacco to old age pensioners.
I am not sure how valid an analogy that is, but it seems to me that the practice of the Canadian Government might provide a valuable example. My friend further suggests:
The Ministry might act as an agent and buy cars at wholesale prices for these men, direct from the firms, as many business firms do at present—e.g., Anglo-Iranian purchase from Fords direct. Precautions could easily be evolved which would prevent such a scheme from being abused.
I have put these few points, and quoted those extracts from this letter, in order slightly to reinforce the case which has already been eloquently and cogently put. We know how extremely humane the Minister of Pensions is. We know that the Treasury do not like to seem inhumane. We know also that my hon. Friend, with his Service experience and administrative ability, will do all that he can to meet the case which has been put. I hope that he can tell the House that he will consider the matter sympathetically.

3.51 p.m.

Commander Galbraith: The House will be grateful to the hon. Member opposite who raised this subject. There is nothing in precedent or custom to exclude party controversy from a Debate on the Adjournment, but I think that the whole House will feel that it is most unfortunate that that spirit should have been introduced into the Debate this afternoon on such a matter. We have been trying to direct the attention of the House to the disabilities of ex-Service men. Surely if there was one occasion when party feeling might have been left out, it is when we are debating this matter. I hope that the hon. Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn), when he considers his display' this afternoon, will feel rather sorry that he intervened in the manner in which he did, and which, I would say, did him no credit whatsoever.

Mr. Blackburn: I stand by what I said this afternoon, that I hoped I would discover that after the hon. and gallant Gentleman has reconsidered the matter he will lay down rules in relation to housing on behalf of the Opposition, if they ever become the Government again, which will ensure that houses are allocated in accordance with need to ex-Service men.

Commander Galbraith: There is no need for the hon. Gentleman to introduce that subject in this Debate. I hope that the hon. Gentleman, when he comes to himself, will feel as I feel about it.

Mr. Blackburn: May I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman a question?

Commander Galbraith: I am not giving way to the hon. Gentleman any more. He evidently does not know how to treat a Debate of this nature: I do not intend to give way to him again.

Mr. Blackburn: On a point of Order. The hon. and gallant Gentleman said "when I come to myself." May I ask exactly what he means by that?

Commander Galbraith: The hon. Gentleman can take any meaning he likes out of it.

Mr. Blackburn: I have raised a case against the Opposition that they do not lay down a policy to provide houses in accordance with need, and the hon. and gallant Member is now trying to take a party advantage out of it.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): What is the point of Order?

Mr. Blackburn: I desire to ask you, on that point of Order, whether it is in Order for the hon. and gallant Member to say "when I come to myself," in other words when I have become a crypto-Tory. I assure him that I am not a crypto-Tory.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not for the Chair to interpret what hon. Members mean.

Commander Galbraith: The hon. Gentleman obviously wishes me also to make a party occasion of one which is no party occasion whatever. If he had paid any attention to anything I have said in this House on the subject of houses he would know very well that it is my view that houses should be allocated in accordance with need. More than that I am not going to say on this occasion, though I am perfectly willing to answer him on another and more suitable occasion.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman who will reply will pay particular attention to what has been said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) because in bringing this matter to the notice of the Minister—the question of the three-wheeled vehicle in particular—he has done something of very great value. I believe with him that much more could be done for these disabled ex-Service men and particularly for those who are practically crippled. The kind of case to which the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) referred, which is most pathetic, should receive every possible attention and consideration, hope that the Government will see their way to do something on the lines which have been indicated by those who have taken part in the Debate.

3.56 p.m.

The Joint Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Mr. John Freeman): You will agree, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, that we have listened to a rather unusual Adjournment Debate. I had intended, and I still intend, to start off by apologising to the hon. Member for Bucklow (Mr. Shepherd) for the fact that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Transport, to whom he originally addressed this subject, is not able to be in his place. I was going on to apologise for the fact that there might be matters

concerning the Ministry of Transport with which I should not be wholly qualified to deal, but I find that I must now make that same apology for the Minister of Pensions, the Minister of Health and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and, conceivably, for the Secretary of State for War, who might have been interested to hear the despatches from the Far East of the hon. Member for Caithness and Sutherland (Mr. Gandar Dower).
I do not however treat this matter in any way as a matter of fun, and I have listened with the greatest seriousness to what has been said by the hon. Member for Bucklow and the hon. Gentlemen who followed him. None the less I am in the invidious position of having to try to answer departmentally a very wide human case which has been brought out in a very undepartmental fashion. I understood that the hon. Member for Bucklow was going to raise the question of the way in which the scheme for allocating cars to disabled ex-Service men has worked, and I want to refer to that among other things, but in addition to that, the hon. Member for Lonsdale (Sir I. Fraser) and other hon. Gentlemen have opened the much wider question of how we ought to treat the disabled ex-Service man, and have raised such matters as whether the three-wheeled Ministry of Pensions car is a suitable vehicle for him and whether he ought to be given a suitable motorcar by the Government as of right, and so on. I feel as sympathetic as any other hon. Member towards the sort of case that has been brought forward, but it is quite impossible for me to deal with it on the Adjournment in that sort of way, and I do not want to lay myself open to the charge from the hon. Member for Buck-low either that I am being unduly departmental and rigid about this, or that I am trying to shuffle responsibility from one department to another.
Quite frankly, it is utterly impossible for me to make a very wide and far-reaching statement of policy on behalf of the Minister of Pensions on a matter like this. The hon. Member for Bucklow knows that many of the remarks made in this Debate ought to be, and probably will be, addressed to the Minister of Pensions. If they are, I am quite certain that they will receive the most humane consideration possible because, if there


is one thing about which there is general agreement in this House, it is the humanity of my right hon. Friend who is at present the Minister of Pensions.

Commander Galbraith: No doubt the hon. Gentleman will draw the attention of his right hon. Friend to the Debate which has taken place?

Mr. Freeman: Most certainly. I was going to add that I will draw his attention to it.
I come now to the argument of pure humanity which has been developed and I must ask the House to address itself to the problem with which I am confronted. The first thing I have to say, which I hope will not be taken as unpalatable—

It being Four o'Clock, the Motion for the Adjournment of the House lapsed, without Question put.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— [Mr. Joseph Henderson.]

Mr. Freeman: —is simply that the scheme for providing a certain number of reconditioned cars for disabled ex-Service men was not, in the first place, conceived primarily as a scheme which fitted into the Ministry of Pensions pattern of helping ex-Service men. It was ho part of the Government's conception of what ex-Service men ought to have as of right, but, as a matter of fact, it was one of the means we had at our disposal for disposing of surplus vehicles, and in a way that did as much good as possible. I hope that the House will note that point, because it does place the discussion on a rather different plane.
The hon. Member for Bucklow gave certain figures, and I am not certain, within a very small number, whether they were accurate or not, but I think they probably were. The facts are that, since the scheme first came into operation, 4,000 cars have been disposed of altogether, the very great majority of them to disabled ex-Service men, and, from February, 1946, onwards, the whole of them to disabled ex-Service men. I think, therefore, the figure the hon. Member gave of something over 2,000 was probably a correct figure, but slightly out of date at the moment. He asked, and it is an obvious point, why the Govern-

ment gave first priority to Government Departments, and the answer is quite simple and follows from the pattern in which I indicated I was answering the Debate. It is that until the Government have no further use for a motor car, it does not become a surplus car. In fact, the requirements of small motor cars by Government Departments have been very small indeed over the last three years, and, incidentally, have been very carefully sieved and examined to make certain that they were as small as possible. It would be an irresponsible act by the Government to dispose of cars which it possessed and needed and then have to buy new cars in the new market with which to replace them. Some months ago, the hon. Member drew the attention of my right hon. Friend the predecessor of the present Minister of Supply to the fact that small numbers of these cars had gone into the State-owned corporations. The hon. Gentleman will remember that the then Minister of Supply put a stop to that immediately, and, in fact, not more than 12 or 14 cars have gone in that direction. Whether we like it or not, the Government cannot be blamed for not disposing, as surplus, of vehicles which are not yet surplus, and that is the argument of the Government Departments concerned.
When the scheme originated it included, in addition to disabled ex-Service men, doctors, nurses and midwives, and, before the end of the war, certain other types of essential users. Progressively, doctors, nurses and midwives have been taken out, and instead, by agreement with the motor car manufacturers, have been given priority to obtain new cars, so that, since February, 1946, the field has been entirely clear to disabled ex-Service men. I was asked how many disabled ex-Service men were still on the waiting list for motor cars and what were their prospects for the future. The answer is quite simple. The waiting list, which was announced some considerable time ago as being 1,900, is now down to about 100 or even less, and these needs will have been met in the very near future. The Minister of Transport, as was announced in the House the other day, has decided to end the scheme because the supply of possible cars that could have been made available has simply dried up. I cannot say that there is not going to be a single car which may be suitable. In actual fact, I expect that there may be three, four or even five a


month: sometimes it may be less and sometimes more. I think that hon. Members will agree that it is impossible to keep in being a substantial government apparatus to catch that small number of vehicles. It not only affects the administrative machine in my own Department but also in the Ministry of Transport. In order to catch even this very small number of vehicles we have to sift through every surplus vehicle all over the country, picking them out from what is literally old Junk which would otherwise be auctioned.
The hon. Member has already mentioned the subject of auctions. I cannot without notice tell him what is the total number of vehicles disposed of by auction but if he will put down a Question I will answer it. The important fact—which may be bad advertising for the business in which I am temporarily engaged—is that, whereas occasionally one may pick up a good bargain at an auction of that kind, the great majority of the vehicles which are sold are in a derelict condition and unsuitable for reconditioning. The manufacturers who have the responsibility for reconditioning such vehicles are usually in agreement with us on that point. We have found from experience that disabled ex-Service men, if offered any of these wretched old vehicles, will, in fact, refuse them.
It may surprise the hon. Member to know of the experience of the Minister of Transport over the last year or so that no less than 600 disabled ex-Service men on the waiting list have refused cars that have been offered to them, as opposed to something like 1,200 who have accepted. The reasons, no doubt, have been various; sometimes perhaps the need has been met before the offer has been made. In a substantial number of cases that is because we have gone too low down the scale of quality in trying to recondition these cars to be able to make them acceptable, trouble-free vehicles. When the hon. Member talked about his 30s. car, I well remembered the £4 car on which I started motoring. I think the analogy was not far wrong.
As far as the possibility of exercising some control over the distribution of new vehicles is concerned, the Government have no preconceived notion one way or the other. As everybody will agree, there is no question of political bias. The Minister of Transport has examined very

carefully the sort of administrative responsibilities with which he will be faced if he tries to institute such a scheme, and naturally my own Department also would be affected by it. We have looked into the matter and the motor manufacturers have examined it from their point of view. Hon. Members opposite have really provided the answer themselves when the hon. Member for Lonsdale said, I think, that there were about 50,000 of these applications which the British Legion had already handled. It is precisely for that reason that we believe that control of the distribution of new cars would not work. At present the Government exercise no control over the distribution of new cars, but the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, by voluntary agreement with the Government, have undertaken to give doctors, nurses, and midwives a high priority. That is rough justice which works quite well and meets a most urgent need for the community. If we ask them to add to the list zoo or 200 disabled ex-Service men there might not be any difficulty, but if we are going to ask them to add a completely new category of priority, which might climb up to 10, 20, 50—as the hon. Member suggested—or even more thousand applicants, not only would the administrative problem be almost insuperable, but the number of cars available to the home market simply would not even begin to go round.

Mr. Shepherd: Obviously it is impossible to deal with 50,000 applicants in view of the small number of cars available for the home market. Surely it is quite possible, however, to select, by degrees of disability and perhaps other qualifying factors, those cases which are really seripus and for which the community has a moral responsibility? It is not satisfactory for the hon. Member merely to put forward administrative reasons and not do that which is demanded by the moral force of the argument.

Mr. Freeman: It is all very well for the hon. Member to say that—and I feel as warmly as he does about the matter—but he is not the first one from the other side of the House to suggest the cutting down of the Civil Service. I know quite well that he does not mean it when it is applied to a case like this, nor do I suspect that he means it when applied to any


individual case, but I cannot be put into a position of promising that I will introduce a cumbersome piece of administrative machinery to filter all these cases and to draw a line which might at the end be wholly unsatisfactory when it is drawn.
I recognise the point made by the hon. Member for Lonsdale as regards the disabled ex-Service man being on a different level to the disabled member of the community who is not an ex-Service man. There is a certain substance in that. Let me, however, get back to my original point.

Sir I. Fraser: As I understand it, the Government gave a special place to disabled people for the surplus vehicles and also to doctors, nurses and midwives. Because there were too many applicants they transferred the doctors, nurses and midwives to the trade, telling it that they would have to look after these people while the Ministry continued to give disabled men first call upon surplus cars. Now the surplus has come to an end. Could not the Government ask the trade, by voluntary agreement, if necessary, to put these special cases of disabled men, whom the British Legion or some other agency might define for the Government, back into the priority class along with the doctors, nurses and midwives? Is not that a practical suggestion?

Mr. Freeman: Let me say straight away that if the motor trade comes to us and says it is willing and would like to do it, I shall not put any obstacle in the way. I will go further and say that if the hon. Member thinks that he and the British Legion can devise some scheme which would relieve the Government of the administrative responsibility it would be worth looking at. I can go no further than that. The difficulty is that there are a large number of people who might qualify for such treatment, and I am by no means satisfied, in spite of the hon. Gentleman's argument, that we should necessarily confine it to people disabled through military service. The community pays the debt it owes to those people, be it generous or ungenerous, through the machinery of the Ministry of Pensions and what we are being asked to do is to devise a scheme whereby we could provide cars for disabled men who are without limbs.

If that is the criterion I fail to see why disabled ex-Service men should be treated differently from disabled men who are not ex-Service men.

Mr. Blackburn: Do the Government accept the principle that cars ought to be allowed in accordance with need, if possible, and will the Government continue to watch the way in which cars are allocated without in any way assuming that they are being wrongly allocated at the moment, but only that they may be able to change the system of allocation if it is not suitable?

Mr. Driberg: Would my hon. Friend look at the practice of the Canadian Government which, if my information is correct, gives cars not to many thousands of men but to the particular limited class of disabled men who can most benefit by it—those who have lost both legs?

Mr. Freeman: I hope the House will forgive me for hammering at this point. I am quite prepared to draw the attention of the Minister of Pensions to the suggestion made, but I am not prepared to treat it as a by-product of my own job of production and of disposal of surpluses. With reference to the intervention of my hon. Friend the Member for King's Norton (Mr. Blackburn), one of the earlier decisions taken by the Government was to allow the distribution of motor cars to rest with the manufacturers. We have sufficiently close relations with the motor car manufacturers and I am perfectly certain that, if the Government saw they were distributing in some way wholly contrary to the public interest, steps would be taken to look at the matter again.
I would like to refer to one point made by the hon. Member for Lonsdale, when he was speaking about blind physiotherapists. That struck me as being a case not quite on a par with the more general case which is being argued and, speaking both without brief and without prejudice, I would like to say that I should have thought the arrangement we already have for doctors, nurses and midwives might conceivably be stretched to cover a case of that kind. While I am not in a position to give the necessary undertaking this afternoon—I want to make it quite clear—I will look at this particular case with sympathy and see if there is any way in which, without open-


ing a new door, we could stretch the system which we are operating at present. As the hon. Member perhaps knows, in my constituency I have had some of the people who have actually been trained for this scheme and I would be particularly anxious to see if anything could possibly be done to help them.

Sir I. Fraser: I would like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary very much.

Mr. Freeman: With reference to the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg), who described the scheme for the Canadian ex-Service men, I have already said that I will draw the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister of Pensions to what the hon. Member has said, but I cannot do more than that.
I have endeavoured to sum up a Debate which, through no fault of my own and, I suspect, through no fault of the hon. Member who initiated it, became rather rambling, and to focus attention once more on the main points which he introduced. As far as the disposal of used cars is concerned, we have done the best we can within our mandate—and our mandate was not to repay a debt of honour to ex-Service men or to do anything which could more profitably be done by the Ministry of Pensions, but to transfer in the most reasonable and humane way we could, quite a number of surplus small cars of which we were in possession. The surplus of that particular type has almost entirely dried up and we are satisfied, as are the motor car manufacturers who handle the reconditioning, that we have scraped the bottom of the barrel. For the odd one or two which may be left

it is not worth carrying on. The people who have already been accepted on the waiting list of the Ministry of Transport will be cleared off very shortly. There are only about Zoo left and my right hon. Friend has felt able to tell the House that in those circumstances, he is satisfied that that scheme can no longer go on.
With regard to new cars, I should be very happy if I could hold out hopes that we would be able to do something about giving priority to disabled ex-Service men. I am quite certain that it would be a cumbersome and complicated piece of machinery to administer and we might do a great deal of injustice. If we were going to do anything like justice it would take such a large bite out of new car production that the expression "priority" would cease wholly to have any effect. We know the great dangers in dealing with what are called "priorities" of any kind, in making certain that they are selective and that they are few, because one soon finds in a Government Department that, from the position where one says a very small item has priority it expands until one may reach a position where almost the total production is priority, and that defeats the general object.
I regret that I am unable to offer more hope. I should like to conclude by thanking the hon. Gentleman who initiated the Debate and to say to him that, so far as he and I are concerned, I am sure that the Debate has been taken entirely seriously.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes past Four o'Clock.